Watching Things Change: Cordell Overgaard

 Every conversation on The Elsa Kurt Show is an opportunity to hear a unique perspective. While guests don't always share my personal views, I believe thoughtful conversations are worth having. In this episode, Cordell J. Overgaard discusses the ideas behind his memoir Watching Things Change, reflecting on decades of change in American law, media, politics, technology, and society. Whether you agree with his conclusions or not, it's a conversation that invites reflection. https://amzn.to/4bofubQ

Transcript

Why Perspective Still Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today's guest returns to bring something we don't get enough of anymore: perspective earned over time. Cordell J. Overgaard has lived through decades of change across lum, media, politics, and technology. From corporate lum to radio and television to first-hand experience inside our political system, his story isn't just about what changed, it's about what those changes have cost us. His new memoir, Watching Things Change, reflects on the evolution of American life, the growing gap between institutions and everyday people, and what the future may hold as technology continues to reshape everything we know. Let's welcome Cordell back.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Well, welcome back. Thank you for joining me again.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Good. Good to see you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Well, first and foremost, you were such an intriguing guest. You've you've lived uh such a wealth of experiences that most of us uh just have not. Um so I'm excited I get to have you come back and expand on some of these things. I've had people ask me uh about different aspects that you mentioned and they wanted to know more. And of course I told them, get the book. Um, so I was I was so pleased to find out that you were coming back again. One of the things, you know, after our our last conversation, I found myself thinking about, you know, just all of those stories that we didn't have time to finish. So today we're just gonna, and this is for everybody watching and listening, we're we're picking up our conversation from where we left off. And um, we're gonna touch on on some of those

Inside The White House After Watergate

SPEAKER_03 1:42

things. And right off the bat, one of them I would love to ask you about is you you've seen politics um from the inside, you know, it's an angle most of us don't get to see that machine working from. Um, and you had mentioned being in the White House after Watergate, which is just what a time in history. Um, it had to have been such an extraordinary atmosphere there at that time. What did it actually feel like to be there during that time?

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Well, when I was there, the there at Watergate had just happened. And we weren't at the stage which where the revelations came out about all of the things that were being talked about by Dixon and his uh aides. There was one person uh uh who was sitting at the table who said, Oh, we wouldn't be involved in anything like that. Uh and of course he knew more than he let on at the time. Uh so it was quite a shock uh when water cake. And and one of the things I think is important is that uh Republicans, and I was a Republican then, uh stepped up and said, Hey, this is not right, and we need to do something about it. And so Republicans went and talked to Dixon and said, No, you can't go on like this. And and he stepped down. Uh, I don't think we have people like that around like we did then who would step up and say what needed to be done.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

People at that time probably thought, it can't get worse than this. Well, well, buckle up. That became, you know, a lot of that became almost tame. The things that were, and I remember this as a child too, you know, certain things that were going on in politics that I only had vague understanding of were so shocking, and the very same things today uh, you know, don't aren't even a blip on the radar anymore.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

So you're so right about that.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Right?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

It it is. It's it's um it's disheartening, isn't it? Like there there is that the moral compass. Uh geez, I hate to believe that it's gone, but it it sure feels like it is, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yes, it does.

Why Government Feels Rigged

SPEAKER_03 3:47

What do ordinary Americans misunderstand about how government actually works?

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Well, there's a way that they're supposed to work.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Uh, but whether they're working that way or not is another question. And I'll give you an example. I don't think it they are working the way they are. Let's take Congress and our our senators and representatives. A lot of them have become like robots. Uh take, for example, a hearing about uh the nomination of Todd Blanche to be attorney general. Uh you had there's no way he should be become attorney general. And you'll have these these senators there who who talk and just kind of ask questions and so forth with they're they're robots and they're gonna vote a certain way no matter what. And it's a very sad situation.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Yeah, it it is. Do you do you feel like this was at play? This this kind of um this game almost, I guess I would call it, was going on back then, or is this just a new evolution of politics where you just can't find anyone who's truly in it for the right reasons? I feel like we're we're very disenfranchised from the whole process that we like we have nothing to do with it and it's just all them. And you know, you hear it all the time. Why should I bother voting? Because it doesn't matter. Do you feel like that this is just such a a grotesque evolution of society? Do you what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Well, I I like to maybe it's not exactly in the same area as you're talking about, but right now we have an affordability problem. Uh and it's a big problem, but it's been talked about, it was talked about when Biden and Pamela Harris were running. And I think the fact that they didn't have anything to say about it, other than let's not tax tips, uh that that that that led to Trump getting elected, and people were looking to him to do something about affordability, and he hasn't really done anything. And as a matter of fact, I haven't heard or seen any politician from either party really step up and say, this is what we need to do about it is a problem, it's a serious problem, and the and the the main problem because of affordability is income and wealth inequality, which has increased over the years substantially, and you have a lot of people at the lower end of the of the income set uh center that that can't can hardly afford to do things, and if they have a un some kind of casualty, they're really stuck. This is unacceptable. And and I think that there are two main things that need to be done about it. Number one, we must have universal health care. You know, there there's organizations, there's one organization that it's a 38-member organization of of uh countries, major countries. All of them except the United States have universal health care. And it just it's just unbelievable that we don't have it. The other thing that needs to be done with is taxes. Income tax rate, we have to increase taxes, mainly on the wealthy. Now that's easier said than done. It's not easy because you just can't increase rates. You've got to deal with the the the different things that are being done with the rules that enable people to avoid paying it. But we have to raise more income. There's just no question about it. And then, but that's only a start, these two things. There really is so much that needs to be done for the lower income people, and I'm very concerned about it.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

This has been an ongoing argument uh in our society for quite some time now, and there hasn't been any budge.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Well, what has anybody come up with, any of the politicians come up with to deal with affordability? If they have something, I haven't seen it or heard it.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Right. I haven't either, to be honest with you. And and I tell you, I have uh you you tell me if I if I'm being completely unfair and saying this. I feel like that this is deliberate, that if we don't have a dependent society, if you don't have poverty and people dependent on government help and aid, um, then they lose control. So it I guess what I'm getting to is that I feel like this is not a problem that they want to fix. Am I unfair in saying that?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Um I think I don't know that they don't want to fix it. They just are not sure what to do, and they are afraid the things that might be done would not be the kind of things they'd like to see. Um but but and you know, we have another problem which jumps into this too, and that is that people are even people who are are at the lower income level when they're suffering, people are are voting against themselves. They're getting information from who knows where and are taking positions in the voting that that that that is not good for their own interests. Um, but that's a whole different issue.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

We could go down many, many paths with this, couldn't we?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yes, we could.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

You know, uh looking back on on your life now, is there a prediction about America that you had then that you feel like you might have gotten wrong? Or even which ones were you spot on about?

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Well, I was pretty confident that the United States was a a sound had a sound government and was gonna proceed and do things that way they need to be done, but so much has changed. And and as I said, I think I may have used this expression, so many of our senators and representatives are robots, and they really are not dealing with the problems that that need to be dealt with now, and it's very concerning, and it's a and it's affecting us uh not only domestically but also internationally too. Yeah, that concerns me.

Supreme Court Power And Ethical Cracks

SPEAKER_03 10:16

Talk to me about what's happening right now with the Supreme Court. There's there's quite a lot going on, so I mean you can really pick any any portion of that that you want to address.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

I have strong concerns about the Supreme Court. I think that it has drastically damaged our country. Let me start, and I'll try to get it go over this quickly. The Second Amendment, you know, which says that a well-regulated militia being necessary, the security of a free street, the right of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Well, this the Supreme Court, with an opinion written by my former classmate at Harvard Law School, Scalia, said, Well, the the preparatory language, we don't need that anymore about a well-regulated militia. Well, if you take that language out, then it's saying the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. So that means you have a difficult time passing any kind of gun control legislation, which is which is ridiculous. And you know that I shouldn't say this, but you know, there was a hearing the other day at Congress, and one of the Supreme Court people was there and mentioned that she was wearing a bulletproof vest. I mean, we have so much violence in domestic. I mean, every day, every day you look at the look on TV or in the newspaper, there's been somebody hurt or killed, mainly killed. So many people killed by gun violence. The other thing, Citizens United, uh, which led to the uh creation of super PACs, which where we have all this money, substantial amounts of money coming into our political system. And that money isn't coming there just for fun. There people are contributing large sums of money because they uh hope to get something out of it. And and and and that's a serious problem. And then the Supreme Court just recently yelled that the president can remove the people who are with government agencies uh without cause. Just remove them. They made an exception for the Federal Reserve System. But but just imagine if you you would think that you'd have members of some of these organizations that would have positions that maybe the president doesn't agree with it, but think that he could just go up and say, Well, you're out.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Well, there's no agreement in what people believe that the president should and shouldn't be allowed to do. Um federal and and lower courts have weighed in and made judgments and rulings. And I don't recall ever seeing such a massive, there's always been a divide, of course, but such an extreme massive divide between parties and more importantly, between people, between the average uh Americans, that everything that um we determine about another person is based off of their um political beliefs. Um do you remember it ever being like this before? I mean, it's like literally everything is political now.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

I do not recall it being this way. I do not recall it being this way. But but let me add one other thing about the Supreme Court, and that is there members have done some things that you've had uh Judge Clarence Thomas has received numerous free trips. Uh and Scalia, in a recent book, said that from the 2004 until the time of his death, he'd taken more than 250 privately funded trips. There have been calls for ethic program at the Supreme Court, and the Chief Justice has resisted that. Now, I'm not saying that all those trips are bad. I mean, for a Supreme Court to be receive money to go to a conference on legal matters or this and that and so forth, that's okay. But but for them to take trips that are paid for by private individuals to do who knows what, that's not acceptable either. So we have a serious problem with the Supreme Court.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

What do you think should happen with the Supreme Court in order to improve or just simply better these conditions?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Well, there are not many options. FDR found that out. Um, one of the things that could be done, but it never was gonna happen. You could increase the number of members on the Supreme Court and appoint some ones who have a different perspective. But that's not uh that's very unlikely to happen. So I really don't see any way that it's gonna change. Um and and I would hope that some of them would start to think, well, gee, maybe we should do things a little bit different because we're not headed in the right direction. But that's maybe just wishful thinking.

Disengaged Citizens And Misinformation

SPEAKER_03 15:13

You mentioned earlier that uh back around the the Nixon timeframe that you were a Republican. Um, did you I'm kind of getting the impression that you you got um di disappointed with the party. Is is that accurate to say?

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Actually, I had some really good experiences with the Republican Party at the state level in Illinois, uh, where there's some really great uh Republicans. We had Governor Thompson, who was outstanding, and and and there was really something. What really made me change, believe it or not, was the war against uh Ukraine. When when when when uh Biden, not Biden, but uh Bush decided the bomb, I thought, why in the world are we doing this? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So uh that that that believe that that changed my thinking.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Sure. And you know, whichever side of your uh of politics that you're on, when you see your your party uh changing from the beliefs that you've always held and and the values that you believe in, and you see that that does not seem to be aligned anymore, it's gotta uh be such a feeling of uh displacement almost uh when you don't have that alignment. Um, because uh again, that's so much of what our life is is based on or determined by, you know, what happens in the political arena obviously affects us uh tremendously. What do you think our bigger problem is? Is it bad leadership or is it disengaged citizens?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I think it's disengaged citizens who are maybe also citizens who are not uh getting the information from the right place and really um as I said before, we have people who are voting against their own interests. And I don't know how you change that. Um but I would be hopeful that we would start to get some candidates that uh have a different perspective and are willing to do things that some of the others are not willing to do now.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Yeah. Well, you hit on uh, you know, a tremendously serious problem that we have in society now with um, you know, with thanks, and I mean that sarcastically to some degree, uh, to social media. You know, we have we have information overload. We're getting actually too much information, uh, again to touch on before, um, you know, there's this massive divide. And so you have one group of people only listening to one narrative, we'll call it, and you have another group of people listening to the exact opposite, and there is no middle ground. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've searched, um, done searches for is there a completely unbiased news source that just says the news without opinion, without spin, without you know, any extra, just exactly what happened, and then let me decide how I feel about it. And I can't find anything. Have you found anything? Because we need to know if you have.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

I really have, but you put you you mentioned a really, really serious problem that we have now. Uh and and in my book, I mentioned that there was a study that was done that indicated that many of the social media posts are are providing information that's not reliable. So that's not unusual. But um it's it's it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Yeah, it is. It is. Um, I have to go back to something that you said, and I I kind of chuckle a little bit because it you it you and we talked about it last time very, very briefly too.

A Career Built On Seizing Chances

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Um, and for you, it was such an aside when you said it. But I know for myself and my audience, we were kind of like very impressed. Um, you very casually mentioned that you went to Harvard, uh, you were in corporate law, radio ownership, television, uh, working with presidents, of course. You've accomplished uh an extraordinary amount of things in your life. Um, yet you spoke about it very, very humbly. Um are you not at all impressed with yourself, sir? Because I I think you deserve to be a little bit. That is quite a varied career. Would you mind talking a little bit more about it and just sharing a little bit of that story for anyone who missed it the first time around?

SPEAKER_01 19:59

I I feel very, very fortunate. Um, my parents were were not wealthy. I went to a University of Illinois, Chicago, uh University of Illinois, Chicago program for two years, and then went into the military and got the GI Bill. And with that, I was able to go downstate to Champaign for senior year. And then fortunately, I got a scholarship from Harvard and went to Harvard Law School. But I've been fortunate along the way that uh things have worked out. But um you constantly have to be thinking about what's around you and what you're doing and what you should be doing. And uh you you don't always get it right. I don't I didn't always get it right. I did uh get enjoy being in politics uh b in Illinois, yeah, uh because I really met some very good people.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

That's so nice. Such a nice bright spot in, you know, as we've been talking about politics quite a bit. What a nice bright spot to to have in that experience when you know it feels like everything that has to do with politics is is very dark and and ugly, particularly uh these days. Um, one of the things you said last time that really struck me was you said you told people to watch for opportunities, and you just you touched on it. Yes. Um, were there opportunities that you almost missed or missed completely?

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yeah, I'm sure there were. Um I think I probably should have stayed involved with cable television longer than I did. Um but other than that, and of course, radio changed so much that I had to move out of that. Um but you just you just constantly have to be thinking about what's around.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Yeah, I never

AI Anxiety And Planning Your Future

SPEAKER_03 22:00

thought when I was in in college that I would be involved with uh cable television or AM radio ethnic radio even ethnic radio stations you know so but but you have to look for opportunities you know yeah and I yeah that's so true yeah it's like it's you know I hate to use a cliche but you have to use that out of the box thinking right and and not just keep looking at the the the same the same box that everybody's looking at and and look around and and see what else there there is or what other opportunities right one of the other things that you mentioned that we had talked about a little bit uh was AI but we didn't really um go too far into it now even since the last time we've talked there have been even more uh advances with AI and and some people maybe wouldn't call them advances uh because they they're not pleased with it but um share with me a little bit your thoughts on what you're seeing with AI right now in regards to uh businesses uh jobs careers all of those things well my involvement with AI has been in trying to communicate sometimes with corporations or online and so forth and there's a robot that's responding to you robots even talk to you uh but unless it's a very straightforward question they're always used to if it's at all complicated you get lost um I confess I am very uneducated about AI um I I I don't understand it really that much um and I don't expect to but I hope that we survive it I you know I there's a very large part of me that says good for you like don't even you know I tell some people every once in a while I still talk to people that say they don't you know they don't go on uh social media at all and I every time I tell them good for you don't do it if you're not on it stay off it live your life enjoy enjoy you know touching grass and seeing sky and and having real conversations with real people instead of you know silly internet arguments with uh keyboard warriors basically um so yeah I do not knock you at all for not being you know first on the AI trend it's uh it is it's the wild west and and I think it will always be I think it was one of those things that like once Pandora's box was opened um it it it is what it is now you know there's tremendous good in it uh but there's also tremendous bad in it as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

A lot of people are worried about it. Yes right yeah and rightly so for different reasons right yeah like like uh what's it gonna do to their future and their jobs and so forth. I have a granddaughter and she's in college and we keep talking about you gotta be you have to be thinking about what you're gonna be doing when you graduate. And she's doing some really serious thinking and wants to get involved in a field that maybe is going to be uh making different things that will be important in our going forward. But it's it's it's it's really something that's complicated and very difficult to deal with.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

Yeah absolutely yeah I don't I don't envy um the the college kids of today or the youth of today because they're they're just uh their experiences are so wildly different than what you or I um it experienced during our our school years uh that kind of leaves me to a question I think it's an interesting question. I don't know if you will I hope you will if you I hope so just pretend like you are if you were uh if you were 25 years old today right now what career would you choose?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

I might choose law law has changed so much uh but and I of course I had a CPA too but uh uh I don't know I'd have to see uh uh probably law and and something involving business yeah um but I'm not sure what it would be there's so many things out there there's so many avenues and lanes if if you could give young people uh entering the workforce right now a bit of advice what would you tell them I would tell them to be very alert about what is going on in the industry they're involved in and in other industries and to see where constantly be thinking about where there may be other opportunities um opportunities for employment or even maybe to to uh get involved in starting some business um you just have to be constantly thinking about what what what what could be available and it's it's it's uh you didn't have to do that so much when I was young because it's changing so much.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Sure

Where To Get The Book

SPEAKER_03 27:11

sure your memoir it also has a a lot of uh practical useful advice and encouragements um uh you know mind from a lifetime of experience um can you tell everyone where they can find your book and if you're I don't know if you do any um like book signing events or anything like that but if you do feel free to include that well it's sort it certainly is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble um I I I think I'm gonna be doing a uh bookstore visit um here in Arizona next month.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Nice uh then I'm asked whether I want to do one in Miami I don't know maybe uh we'll see but but it's mostly being presented in a lot of bookstores around the country uh and as I say it it it is available at Barnes and Noble and in Amazon.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Wonderful it was such an honor to have you come back on and share your insights and your book and your thoughts with me. I appreciate you coming back.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Well I enjoyed it so it's so great to talk to you and hear what your thoughts are too wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

All right guys I hope you enjoyed today's episode you can get those links you can get uh Cordell's book in the links in the show notes we look forward to seeing you guys next time take care you've got a story worth sharing now it's time to tell it well whether you're an author entrepreneur influencer or podcast guest stepping in front of the camera or microphone can feel overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

On the other side of the mic is your practical encouraging guide to becoming a confident authentic and engaging interviewee written by media personality and best selling author Elsa Kurt this book blends real world wisdom from hundreds of interviews with a touch of humor, grace and heart. It's more than a how to it's a roadmap to presence, professionalism and peace in every conversation