The Making of Mighty Men with Jackie Wakefield

What does it really take to become a mighty man or woman of God when you feel ordinary, behind, or even disqualified? We sit down with author and jail chaplain Jackie Wakefield to talk about The Making of Mighty Men and the surprising path God uses to form spiritual strength, courageous leadership, and real discipleship. 

Jackie traces the message back to David’s mighty men, the misfits who gathered to David in a cave and later became giant killers. We talk about why calling and timing are not the same thing, how waiting can build endurance, and how God’s peace becomes a guide when your mind is racing. Jackie also shares the personal markers that kept him moving forward, including the long road from an initial prompting in 2014 to finally completing the book years later. 

The conversation gets practical and raw through stories from prison and jail ministry, where transformation is tested under pressure. Jackie describes men and women coming out of addiction, rebuilding their lives through faith-based rehabilitation, and the ripple effect this kind of gospel-centered work can have on an entire community. We also dig into David’s repentance, spiritual authority, and why standing your ground matters when everyone else walks away. 

If you’re hungry for Christian purpose, biblical leadership, and a faith that actually holds up in real life, this one will challenge and encourage you. Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review with the biggest idea you’re taking with you. Find Jackie's Book Here: https://amzn.to/4f94yRB

Transcript

Opening Question And Theme

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What does it really take to become a mighty man or woman of God? Scripture reminds us that some of the greatest warriors of faith didn't begin as heroes. They began as ordinary people willing to trust an extraordinary God. Today, author Jackie Wakefield joins us to explore the remarkable transformation of David's mighty men and the timeless lessons their lives still offer every believer. Stay with us for this inspiring conversation on Elsa Kurt Interviews. Hello, Jackie.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

It's so nice to meet you. Thank you for joining us. I am really excited for our conversation. I, you know, this is the listen, I can talk about all of this all day long. I loved reading your personal story. So if you would tell everybody a little bit about you and um, you know, the whole before the book version of this.

Jackie’s Testimony And 50-Year Marriage

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Um well, I was born here in in Tennessee in the same county. Um, but I always say my parents kidnapped me when I was real little and I had to go to Detroit. And so I grew up in the inner city of Detroit. Um, I always kept close ties here. And actually, I I went to high school here in Telico for a little while. That's really where I met my wife. And uh, but then we never really, you know, I went back up there and I've uh I've not done everything right. I I graduated uh in 73. I uh went into the military and really goofed that up bad. Um got to the point where they asked me if I wanted to get out, and I said, yeah. And so they obliged me on that. I wasn't a Christian at the time, but God really got to dealing with me and uh the seeds that were planted. I went to some some of the inner city schools, or not schools, but inner city churches. And uh they planted some seeds in me, plus, you know, some other relatives did, and they got to working on me. And then one night I called the church up and I asked them, you know, if they're having service, and they said yes. I didn't know anybody there. I just know that I passed that church on my way to high school and I went in there and uh sat in the back and uh to get the pastor preached or taught. I don't remember anything that he said other than he gave an invitation about how Christ died for us and we can receive eternal life. And I went down the altar and uh that I was 19 going on 20. Wow, changed my life.

SPEAKER_05 2:16

Yeah, that's incredible. I love I love those testimonies. I love the stories of how and when. And you know, I always think mine is so boring, and I and I've learned over this this journey that uh nobody's story is is boring. Every story is special and every story is wonderful. And I love that you were 19, going on 20, and that that moment happened for you and changed the whole trajectory of your life, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Yes. And then not long after that, I um I started writing who who's now my wife, and she wasn't really following the Lord at the time. And my back then, you know, we wrote letters. Some people don't know what a letter is, you know, when you sit down and you take a pencil and pen and you think out what you're saying, and then you mail it off and and all of that. And um, and during that time of writing to her, uh, she she went to church and uh she she came to know the Lord and uh then we just got a relationship and then um got married in uh 1976. Um we lived in Detroit uh for a few years and come come back here to Telico, always called it my home, in 1978, and uh been here ever since. In fact, I'm I'm about a stone's throw away from the church that uh my wife and I got married in.

SPEAKER_05 3:31

Um, I love that. And happy anniversary is in order. You just celebrated how many years?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

50 years, yes.

SPEAKER_05 3:39

50 years. That's so beautiful. And it feels like I I like to believe I'm wrong, but it feels like it's such a rare thing to hear these days. And you know, so every time you hear that that people took these, you know, couples took this journey together and and it spanned decades and weathered everything there is to weather in life. I mean, you don't go through, you know, that many years without um having events and things happen in life that are difficult and challenging. So, you know, you test those vows and you see if you are, you know, for better, for worse, and sickness and health and you know, all of the things. And and here you are all these years later, uh, you know, probably stronger than ever, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah. Um it's hard to imagine life without my wife and children. Um also, we just recently went to an event of my my sister-in-law, my um wife's brothers and sister-in-laws and in-laws, we all got a um had a photograph there. Uh four of us, four of the couples, have over 50 years of marriage.

SPEAKER_05 4:40

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

That's pretty unusual for a family.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

Yes, definitely. If you could bottle that, right, and give it to everyone, what a what a wonderful world it would be for

How The Book Was Born

SPEAKER_05 4:52

sure. Um, let's talk about your book, The Making of Mighty Men. What compelled you to write this book?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Well, it was back in 19, not 2014, we were having a church service, and it was, I think it was on a Wednesday night. And sometimes the pastor would say uh at the end of the closing of the service, said, Why don't you just get together with some other people and just pray together, pray for one another? And so myself and uh Don Swanson and Mike Jenkins and this other brother by the name of Coney, we just got together and prayed. And while I was praying, uh I didn't hear any audible voices, but inside I felt like God was saying, I want to raise up mighty men out of this congregation. And that really just stuck right with me. And and that term mighty men, I knew that it was talk is David. That's that's where my mind immediately went to. And I started studying on that. And not long after that, uh, I started teaching uh the men's Bible study on Sunday morning, and it was uh I did something that I didn't have to pray about and say, Well, why I wonder what I should teach on. I knew what I needed to go to, and it was just so strong in me. And one of the guys I prayed was with praying with that night, Michael, he had a dream, and in and in that dream there was war, and people from the men from the uh River Life, they were going to the recruitment center to join up, and there was a long line there. But as we got to the line, there was another line next to that, not really much of a line. There was a man who was in special forces, he was dressed up with the uniform and the patches, and he told us, he says, Y'all don't go in that line. This is the line you need to be in. And that really just emphasized to me that the calling that God has for us is there's nothing wrong with being in the regular army or being just an average Christian, but I believe God's calling us in this day to step it up because the times require it, you know. And so, and that that you know really stuck just a confirmation. And then that same year, 2014, I went to a meeting down in Cleveland at the Omega Center, place where Perry Stone uh has built a place there. And I was sitting there before the service, and I was by myself, and there was a another man that I didn't know him, he was sitting next to me, and I would just stuck up a conversation. He was a pastor, and you know, Jesus said, Out of the abundance of your heart, your mouth's gonna speak. And I I got to talking, and I just couldn't help but to talk about what I've been studying. I mean, it was just coming out. And uh he didn't know this, but I'd already been thinking about maybe God wants me to write a book. And then he he just looked at me and said, He said, You know, you need to write a book. And I'm thinking, I've been thinking about that. And so, and I I I tried to start it back then, but it just wasn't, it wasn't coming. I mean, I yeah at the time I was working and still, you know, going to the jail and life was pretty busy. And for me to sit down and write something, I have to really get focused and zero in and study, and and uh I just really it just wasn't there. But then I think it was around 2023, uh in January, God had been dealing with me, and I I'd done, I guess you might say, retired from the uh the factory work. Um I I'm still working. I I I substitute teach in our area some, and but it was that time, and I told my wife, I says, God wants me to finish this book. I'm gonna start do that. And and so I just started really going at it and started studying it and just uh applying it. And there's so much I don't know. I mean, I'm not very computer savvy. It really helps out a whole lot if you are, and I've had to ask a lot of people for help in different areas. Then last year in in uh November, I I I had this dream on Sunday morning. Uh I dreamed that I was in prison and I was talking to the COs in prison, and they said, You've been here a long time. I said, Yeah, I've been here for 11 years. That's kind of strange. That's an odd number. I mean, when I think of people being in prison, I think they've been in there five, 10, 15, 20, but 11. And and I thought, that's that's strange. And I I I got up around four o'clock, then I went to my laptop and I I thought I need to I need to record this down, I need to write it down and for reference. And while I turned our my laptop on, I got an email from not a yeah, it was a text message from uh a woman, uh friend that would been helping me with this book. And and and so I got to thinking, I thought, well, it's been it's been 11 years since I 2014, and here it is, you know, 2025, 11 years. And then not only that, uh November is the 11th month of the year.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Oh boy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

That that Sunday, we were going to uh celebrate my granddaughter's birthday. Did you know what number that is?

SPEAKER_05 9:40

I could guess.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

11.

unknown 9:42

11.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

And I and I got to thinking about what does that mean? 11, all these numbers coming up in prison. And I don't feel like I've been bound in a bad way, but I've been locked in to this uh task of writing a book. I know, I know it's not a big book, it's it's pretty small. You could personally could read it pretty quickly, but the information in there is things that we need to really, yeah, I think he should study on and meditate on, make some notes on and look up the scripture scripture references. And uh so as I was thinking about that, what does the number 11 mean? And that and that that's incomplete. Um, Joseph had 12 sons, and he thought Joseph was dead, so it made it incomplete. And then Jesus had 12 apostles, but one of them, you know, died, committed suicide, and it left just 11. And that was incomplete, and that's the way it was back in November. The book wasn't complete yet.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

But then I got to thinking about the this year, this would be the 12th year, and that number means more complete. You know, when Joseph came back above the farm, it made it complete. 12 um uh sons, uh, 12 tribes. Uh in Acts chapter one, they got they they got the 12th guy back, you know, and so there were 12 apostles, and not only that, there's 12 gates in heaven, 12 angels, and yeah, and I it gave me some encouragement. I thought next year is going to be the year I'm gonna get out of prison, it's gonna be complete. And then when the book came out, it came out, uh, I noticed it came out on Amazon on July the 12th, on Sunday. You know, I wouldn't have thought Sunday would be a day a book would come out, but sure anyway, there was just these these numbers popping up. And uh I believe that it's it's more for me, it's it's not just uh something to do. I I know when I was going through the process, uh one of the publishers asked me, he asked me a couple times, he said, What's your purpose in in writing this book? Do you want to make money? Do you want to get out a message? And I and I told him, I said, the primary reason why I want to write this because I I have a message, I want to get it out. And I've already had some people that have are interested in in the book, people that are in the um faith-based rehabilitation, trying to you know help people get away from addictions and and such. And um, so that that's really the the purpose of what this book is for. And and in a way, I really believe that these 12 years have been somehow in God's plan, God's timetable, you know.

SPEAKER_04 12:17

Yeah, absolutely.

11, 12, And God’s Timing

SPEAKER_04 12:19

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Because sometimes we think, you know, we got it, you know, do it and gotta get it done now. But I found out in walking with the Lord, you can't force things, you force the timetable. You may have the calling to do it, but you've got to do have the right timing, you know, as Eccles says in Ecclesiastes, to everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven. And we we need to recognize not only what God's called us to do, but recognize his timing because we can truly, you know, jump the gun and and go out prematurely. I think of one of the uh helpers of uh Barnabas and and and Saul, who later changed his name to Paul, you know, they went on their first missionary journey and and they took with them John Mark. And um, and in that 13th chapter of Acts, the Holy Spirit said, separate me, Barnabas and Saul for the work that I've called them. He didn't say anything about John Mark, but John, I'm sure he felt, you know, I want to go, I'm enthused. But when things got tough, he he backed out and he went home. And it and it got so so bad that, you know, uh on their next missionary journey, Barnabas wanted to take John Mark along, and and and Paul said, No, he he's he's not fit and not right. And uh they had to split up. But the thing about it was John Mark proved himself, and you know, he wrote the gospel of Mark, you know, and that that's you know, he didn't just cop out and you never heard of him again. There was restoration, and then in one of Paul's last letters, you know, he's talking it writing to Timothy, and he says, you know, and bring you know, Mark, he's profitable for the ministry. He saw their profit there. So timing is so important, you know. God's got a time for each one of us. And I believe that this time that we're living in, 2026, is a time for Christians to really step up and find out what God, what do you want from me? What can I do? You know, and um when we could find that out and start walking in it, then we'll we'll see God's glory more than we have ever seen before.

SPEAKER_04 14:21

Yeah, I mean, I think you just uh you just summed up probably one of our biggest struggles as Christians, as humans, and and that is, you know, to be patient and to be obedient, right?

SPEAKER_05 14:33

And to recognize, uh, to discern the the difference between, you know, a calling, between a wish, uh, your, you know, your own motives, your own desires and and ideas, and um, you know, and listening for God's will for your life, right? And and I think, you know, I it falls under, and you correct me if if you think I'm wrong, I think it kind of falls into that, like you, if you know, you know, you'll you're you'll know when you know, you know, it it'll it'll just be like you get it, you understand. Because, you know, how many times, right, do we sit there and say, well, I maybe this is what God wants me to do, maybe this is what God wants me to do. And when you know, you know, right. And and it sounds like in the case of this book, and I and I love the I love the connections that you made between, you know, the number 11 and 12. And it's like they were like little, little nods for you to to feel that you were on the right track with it, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

God is so big and he's so smart. And uh somebody said that uh the Holy Spirit is a genius. If we'll listen to him, he'll make us look smart. And always help me up a lot.

SPEAKER_05 15:46

Yes. Do you feel that you understand so much more in hindsight? Do you see those, you know, God winks, they call them, right? Do you see them more in hindsight? Or were you have you been fortunate enough to recognize them in the moment?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

It's a learning process, honestly. Uh, there's times I've, you know, I've been frustrated. I mean, uh, my wife could she knows more about that than anybody else because we live together. Um, but it's just pressing through, you know. He said, I think it was Point said, run with patience or with endurance the race that's set before us. And and the race that we're in is not a sprinter's race. If we think that we can just rush out there and just get it done, and you know, I'm the kind of person I want, I want to do what I'm supposed to do. Uh, you know, if I've got a tour to do, I want to get it done. I I don't want to wait around for it. But sometimes we have to. Sometimes we got to sit back and and listen to God. And that's one thing about our our our walk with the Lord is that God doesn't live in our minds so much, he lives in our heart. And it's that peace. You know, they shall go forth with joy, be led forth with peace. And God leads us with his peace. And when we don't have that peace, we need to kind of back off and and wait a while. Let the peace of God, you know, be that empire. Make the decisions for us, and it'll go a whole lot better that way, you know, because it's rough when you're trying to make it happen, because I'm not God, I can't do it. Right. But when I wait on the Lord, you know, like the psalmist said, I wait on the Lord, be of good courage, he will strengthen thine heart. Wait, I say, on the Lord. And there's just there's so much uh wisdom. We we think waiting is wasted time, but it's not wasted time. Waiting is building up, it's it's strengthening. You know, I I think of what uh Daniel wrote in when his book, he said, but the people that do know their God shall be strong and do exploits. And that word Noah, I looked it up in in the Hebrew and it's Yada. And it's the same word that the Bible used for Adam, when it says Adam knew Eve, and they and and she was got a son. That that's intimacy. And our our knowledge of God is not just based upon book knowledge or head knowledge, it's an intimate knowledge that we have with God. And when when we know God intimately, we'll be strong and do exploits. But and I like the way the the NASB puts it. He said, the people that know their God shall display strength, take action. And that's that's what the mighty men did. They displayed that strength. Yeah, they took action, and that's what God wants to do this day.

SPEAKER_05 18:29

Yeah, so one of the things that I I love about this book and and your choice for you know, writing this book. Um when I hear the term mighty men, my first thought was, my goodness, we that is what we need in this world. We need mighty men, we need strong men who are not afraid to lead and and be leaders and and be, you know, warriors for God, really. Um tell me, I'm I'm so curious about your studies and what you learned from your studies of David. Is there is there anything that we as Christians um have overlooked, have missed in his story?

David’s Imperfect Life And Repentance

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Well, one thing uh with David, you know, he was not a perfect man. I mean, he messed up, he he did things that he ought to be killed for, you know. Uh murder is bad. I mean, he had a man uh killed. He committed uh uh adultery with with his with his wife, and that's some terrible things. But he was a man that repented and sought God and God gave him. And we we need to realize too that we're we're we're fallible and there's times that we make mistakes, but we need to do like David did, and and it's he recorded it in in the 50 first 51st Psalm when he when he said, Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean. And he began to repent. And he said, You know, uh, you know, take not your Holy Spirit from me. You know, he recognized, you know, he was he was away from God. There there's a a president that that I I I I love to quote some of his quotes, uh Teddy Roosevelt, and here's a speech that he made, uh they call it, I think the man in the arena. And part of that he says when when there's effort, uh there is no effort without error and shortcoming. And you you anybody that's gonna make an effort, a strong effort, are gonna come short one way or another, whether because of our own lack of knowledge, but we you know, we we just press in there, we press going and we keep going on, despite ourselves. That that's some of the hardest things to do is to I think sometimes to to forgive yourself and realize, hey, um, you know, I I think of that Chris Christophuson, Christophuson song where he said, Why me, Lord? What have I ever done?

unknown 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

And I think of that, God, why why did you call me? You know, and uh I felt like God called me to to minister the word back in 1978. And uh, I don't I know I'm not a great preacher at all, but you know, and many times I thought, God, why why am I in this position? Why why am I a chaplain at the Monroe County Jail? There's other people that are, I think, that are more qualified than me, but God has uh somehow just put me in that position. And uh, and and I guess it just really goes along with the Bible even where he says he says God takes the weak things of this world and confounds the things that are mighty. And so one God raises up, you know, people like me to say, hey, you know, what can he do? Well, Jack can't do a whole lot, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Jack can't do Jack, but you know, God can do something.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Anybody and that that's one thing that what years ago when I first started uh going into the jail, the Lord gave me a word and he said that he was gonna raise up uh some some mighty believers that's gonna come out of this facility that's gonna really influence our county. And I I don't say this to boast about myself, but this is just the work of the Lord. There's a lot of people that go into the jail also. And there's men and women that are coming out of the of these facilities that are walking strong, they're they're declaring the word of God, they're they're living right and doing right, and um and it's it and it's a God thing. You know, when I I know the title of this book is uh the making of mighty men, but it's not about gender. Because God, you know, I know I have a picture of a of a man, uh, you know, we're dressed and in an armor and so on, but I wished I could just put a woman on there too, because God's raising mighty women in this day. We we need believers, you know, God's no respecter of a person. God can use a man, God can use a woman, God can raise up a Deborah or an Esther. I mean, there's nothing that God can't do with a vessel that's willing to get it done.

SPEAKER_05 22:46

Yeah, absolutely.

Redemption Through Jail Ministry

SPEAKER_05 22:48

In your uh experience in the prison as a chaplain, is there is there any particular story that stands out to you more than others of transformation? Your book, you know, had speaks a lot about uh about transformation. Um, is there any? I'm just curious, is there any in particular that stand out to you more than others?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Yeah, there's well there's there's good stories and then there's not so good stories. Uh some of the good stories. There's there's some women that have uh come out of uh the the jail and uh they're they're singing, they're testifying, uh, they're going to different churches and they're really proclaiming the gospel and uh they're very actively involved, saying with men. Um our our church is, I think, a little bit unique from other lot of churches, is because a lot many of the people that go to our church have records. Uh they've they've been in jail. Uh our our church has a ministry, started a ministry called the House that Mercy Built, and it's to help women. They started it back in 2010, and it helps women. It's a faith-based uh ministry, and there's been some mighty women that's come out of there. I mean, uh my one, Tammy Connors, she she was in jail. She was been in Monroe County, McMinn County. And uh when they first interviewed her for the program, uh the the pastor said, She's gone too far, we can't help her. But her mother, her mother kept on to the pastor, said, Do you got a bed for Tammy? And he kept on, she kept on and on. And finally they let Tammy in. Well, Tammy's life got changed. She had she had been on drugs, making meth and all kinds of you know, bad living, bad choices. But God cleaned her up, God saved her. And uh, while she was in the the house there, she was, I think, in her 40s. She hadn't had a driver's license since she was a teenager. And she got her driver's license back, she got a GED. Uh, she became the house mother of that of that of the of the facility there. They have wet women there. She went on and now she's she's got uh she's got a degree, and uh she's she's working with doctors around medicine and stuff and and such a transformation. Um and and other women too. She's not the house mother, but other women too. And uh and men, uh, God's God's doing a work. But unfortunately, uh there's some men, they they make a commitment, and I I can tell I know that God's done a work in them. When they get out, they they they don't follow through for whatever reason. There's another ministry in our church that it's more um more recent. And uh they have a place for men, it's called the Valor House, and they're taking men and doing the same thing, mirroring really about the house of mercy. And uh God's using them. And uh, and that's when you go into our church. I mean, you might see some people with tattoos and so on, and there's a a lot of different variety of people, but I believe our our God's really moving in our church to to go forth and and and to reach the unreachable.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:56

You know, it it's a beautiful thing and it's a difficult thing.

SPEAKER_05 26:00

And I and I think we live in a kind of a jaded kind of, we live in a jaded world, and people, I think probably oftentimes look at the people that come into these systems, the jail system, the prison system, and write them off, right? And then you hear stories like Tammy, and it's just such a great reminder that, you know, nobody is too far gone that they can't be redeemed. And and I think that's such a great reminder for all of us. And I include myself in that, by the way, because there's been plenty of times where I've, you know, mentally written people off and said they're never gonna change, they're never going to, you know, grow as a human. And then it's a great reminder right here to say, well, you're not really grown as a human if you're thinking that. So, you know, it's a great reminder that uh for all of us, I think that um, you know, everybody's story is isn't finished yet. And God is the one that decides, you know, when the story is done and um, you know, if they can be redeemed or not. It's not not for us. So I love that reminder. So I think I thank you for that reminder because that that Tammy's story right there was was one of those moments where you're like, that's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

And then there's you know, it can there's another story um with uh uh Spencer Kuhn. He he's from our area, uh, but he really got into uh years ago uh drugs and different things. And he got on involved in a shootout with the police. And he ended up with uh uh being sentenced to uh oh virtually a life sentence. Um he was in jail for a long time. I think it was in maybe uh the early 2000s. I mean, he was in in prison and it didn't look like he was gonna get out. He was yeah, very bitter. Uh he was in solitary for um I think about three years.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

He he would fight with the guards. I mean, they they didn't like to deal with him. And then one day a guard threw a Bible in the cell and said, Hey, you know, do you own this? And he started reading it. And uh God transformed his life and he became a disciple. He started sharing the gospel with other people. And um then uh uh miraculously he he was able to get out of jail and he's been out for three or four years now. And he wasn't supposed to get out to 2040 something, you know. Uh, but he but he's out, he's got a business, he's helping other people. He's going in to the jail also and and testifying of God's grace. You know, that's that's what it's gonna take. You know, it's not pulling ourselves up by the book, bootstraps, as they say, or being, you know, I'm just gonna make put my mind to it. Well, it's gonna take more than our mind. Uh it's gonna take it's gonna take the power of God to change our minds. Yeah, that's you've got to be born again. You can't make it on the first birth. We've got to be major. That's for sure. Then after that, get our minds renewed, you know. Yeah, that's what uh I I I heard the our sheriff say not too long ago, when I was talking with him, and he said he said the crime rate down in our county has gone down, and the the recidicism has gone down, repeat offenders has gone down. And he attributed that to the ministry of the well, I've got there's people from other churches, I'm not the only one. We've got right now we've got 191 volunteers that go in there, men and women go in there and declaring the gospel, and it has an impact. And if if more, I wish more jails, county jails would realize that and open up the gospel, they would find that this is not just a religion, it's it will change the face of your community.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's so true.

SPEAKER_05 29:35

What a what an amazing work you guys are doing there. Um, and and clearly, you know, your community is is more than benefiting from that. And of course, the ripple effect of that, that just keeps going outward because the more people that they speak to, the more lives that they can potentially change, um, you know, through the words. So that's just it's it's so um it's so wonderful to hear. It just gives you that sense of hope and resets perspective, I think. Um talk to me a little bit about

Leadership That Raises Giant Killers

SPEAKER_05 30:07

leadership. Your book talks about leadership and and what qualities uh made David someone others were willing to follow even before he came became king. Um, what are some of those qualities you think that make someone a person others want to follow?

SPEAKER_01 30:25

One thing, uh it was just simply about the presence of the Lord in his life. Uh these guys, I mean, David was was on the run. I mean, he he got a a prophecy from Samuel saying, You're gonna you're you're the next king, and and he anointed him, and the spirit of God came on David. But it's like I said, there's a timing involved in that. And he didn't just go in there and say, Okay, Saul, get out of here, I'm taking over. No, there was a development, and God raises up people. And I think sometimes we want to shortcut what God wants to do in the process, and it's sometimes it's not easy. I don't think as as David was a young man thinking, that king's gonna get after me, he's gonna try to kill me. Uh, but you know, hey, he he just went ahead and by faith go on. And he he rose to power, you know. Yeah, he had a great name to start with. He killed Goliath. I mean, and then uh Saul got jealous and wanted to kill him, and and David goes on the run, and that wasn't what the prophet told him was going to happen, you know. And he ends up in the a Philistine camp, and uh that they're saying, Oh, this is David, you know, he's he's he's killed, and they sung songs about him, you know. He he's he's killed tens of thousands, and you know, he's a bad guy. But David makes himself out to be mad, you know, with spit coming down his face, and uh, and actually he uh he wrote uh Psalms 34, wow, in that condition, you know, and then that psalm is a is a is a great psalm. Uh he said, I will bless the Lord at all times, his praise. They that that the lived it. He it wasn't that you know he's putting on some face, and then he was he was running away from Saul, and it just seemed like he didn't have any direction. He ends up in a cave, cave of Adulla. And in that cave, it says that that every man that was discontent, that was uh discouraged, uh in debt, uh they came to him. And so here's David. He's he's he's he's on the run himself, probably hoping there'll be some good, strong people come along to help. But these people aren't the cream of the crop, right? They're they're they're the lower base. But you know, it the Bible says that they made David their captain. They, you know, and they they saw something in him. And I I think that's one of the things that people see in a leader, as a as far as a believer, is that they'll see the presence of God in their life, you know, and that he's real. David not only just loved the Lord, but he cared about people too, he cared about his men. And while he was in the cave, there was a it was a real changing in his life. The prophet came to him, and then he be he started getting specific words and direction from God. And and the prophet said, Get out of the cave, go here, go, and so he started listening to God. God was developing him that, you know, yeah, he was anointed, he had a purpose, but yet he needed to follow the direction of the Lord. And those men were influenced by David. And I I I bring it out in the book that David is is like a type of Christ, a type or shadow. There's so much parallels with David and Jesus. Both came from the tribe of Judah, both were born in Bethlehem, uh, both had kings that wanted to kill them. Uh and both thought, well, not nothing much is going to come out of him. But with with Jesus, he he cared about people. He walked in the presence of the Lord, and they were people that came to Jesus, and these those those fishermen came to him. And as those men came to David and got influenced by his life, because our our life, and that's one thing that I I really stress and emphasize to guys and guys that's that's in Carson Register, when you get out of here, don't hang around with the same crowd. There's a proverb, and it's so true, it says, He that walks with wise men shall be wise, but the companion of fools will be destroyed. And I I just paraphrase it like this hang out with trash, you're gonna end up in the dump. And so that's what these men do. They attach themselves, and that spirit, that anointing in David began to work in their lives. And I I encourage every believer, you know, don't just satisfy, yeah, I made a profession of faith and and my name's written down in the Lamb's book of life, and I'm ready to go to heaven. That's great. But we're here, God's got purpose for our life today. Grow in the Lord. Uh, it you know, it's like our natural birth. When we're born the first time, they don't just leave us in a hospital. Right. No, we we start to grow and we we start to learn and we we start to develop and start to know what's my purpose. And God wants us to know our purpose. So yeah, God, God's called us to be children of God, but God's got specific purposes and places for us to go. And and we will not find that flow of the Spirit of God outside of that, not just doing it on our own. These men were developed, they grew. It wasn't an overnight thing, there was a process that they went through. And it it truly, these men that came to him helped him. I don't think he realized that. They helped him establish the kingdom. They helped him.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

I don't think he realized that when he first saw them. These guys there in debt, you know, they're you know, they're wishy-washy men. But you know what? They they became giant killers, and sometimes people don't realize that. I mean, it's very evident in the Bible, I'll bring that out. David, he killed one one giant, one big guy, but his men killed four. David went down to that that creek and picked up five smooth stones. He didn't need five, just needed one. Why did he take the other four? I I think it was four his brothers. You know, where I grew up, um, if you fought with one person, sometimes you had to fight with a family member or two. Sure. And so he was ready. But he grew he he raised up a generation that would duplicate his works. It wasn't like I'm the only giant killer, you know, you guys can't do nothing. I'm a man. No, he trained them up to where they stood, their ground, they walked in integrity and strength, just like Jesus did. Jesus told his disciples, he said, the works that I do, you're gonna do also. And greater works than they shall you do, because I'm going to the Father. And we find that when we reread the book of Acts, we find his disciples doing some of the same works Jesus did preaching, teaching, laying hands on sick people, raising the dead. I mean, my goodness, God has called us to a higher calling than what we recognize. And I I when I when I think about this book, I I I've I've read it and I've I've read it, reread it, and it always speaks to me because I think most of us can probably admit that we're living shorter of the revelation that God has given us. We're not walking in all that God showed us to. That many times we're we're holding back in areas. I don't want to hold back. I I want to go forward. And I I I challenge people to I'm not wanting to so much sell a book, but I want to give out a message. Hey, God wants you to to grow, God wants you to be strong. That's what was in Paul's heart when he wrote to the Ephesians. He said, Be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God. You know, he wanted people to and he told Timothy, he said, the things that you've heard of me, the same, preach and commit to other people who will do the same thing. You know, this this mood of God wants to continue on, and especially in the day that we're living in. I believe that we're really living in perilous times. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 38:08

I love that you touch on one of the things that you know, everything you've touched on is so relevant and so important to our growth and our actions as Christians. Um, but the the last thing that you kind of touched on there, which is, you know, living in in our purpose, service serving in our purpose and uh realizing it, our our purpose. And I think you're so right. I think so many of us um we get caught up in the world, you know, instead of the word, and uh we forget that we were designed for a purpose and it's his purpose that we're designed for. And so I I really love that your book is is a call to that, a reminder of that, you know, through, through these, you know, through David's story, um, and how we can apply that to our lives today, right now, and live in our purpose. So um what a what a valuable book for such a necessary time, you know, it it's it's so needed right now because I think we we have become you know complacent and a little directionless and and forgetful of you know who we are and whose we are. So um what a wonderful, what a wonderful time for this. And I especially love that you um it's not about the money, you know, because I know so many um first-time authors, they they believe, they think that you know they're gonna make so much money off of their books, it's gonna become a New York Times bestseller and it's gonna be turned into a movie and it's gonna be all of these things. And and I I'm so touched by your humble, um, earnest desire for it to just reach people that it needs to reach. So I I really admire that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Well, I I know as I've uh shared before, you know, I've looked on Amazon and there's so many other books, and I thought, wow, I'm glad I didn't see this earlier because that would really discourage me. Because these these people, you know, I'm I'm sure they're they're I've not read their books, but I'm sure they got some good points. But I I know that there are some nuggets in this book that people can can grab a hold of and apply to their life that will that will be a game changer in certain areas. Oh yeah. One one of the things that I see in about these mighty men, they were in it for the long haul. They they weren't uh for the most part, these men, they were they were committed to to their work and they were committed to David. Uh, and that's one thing that you know that I I look at certain leaders uh and I give Billy Graham as a as an example. Billy Graham ministered for, I don't know, many decades. They were people that uh Cliff Barrels uh and uh George Beverly Shea, they they were with him back in the early years, they stayed with him, you know, and it and that's a rare thing these days to to to go into a ministry and and to see that the people that are part of that church have been there for the long haul. Now, I know there's sometimes God wants us to to move on. I I know that. I I I've I've been saved for for over 50 years. Um but I can count on on one hand of the churches that I've been involved with. I'm I'm not a church hopper. I don't just things don't go right, I'm just gonna go somewhere else. Man, where God wants you to go somewhere, go there. I I'm reminded of something that I heard the other day uh that the late Orl Roberts uh spoke with Kenneth Copeland. He said, he said, there's three things. If you do these three things, you'll be successful as a minister. And I my ears won't perk up on something like that. And he said, number one, he said, he said, find the will of God. Find the will of God. Not what everybody else wants, not sticking your finger up and finding out where the wind's from, find the will of God for your life. And then after you have found the will of God, then don't let other people influence you to go somewhere else. You know, don't confer with people, don't ask them, is this the will of God? If you're not sure, you're not sure. But if you know it's the will of God, stick with it. And then the third thing is he said, get the job done at all cost. And I I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I mean, uh I'll I'll I'll take the time, I'll I'll spend the money, whatever it takes. I I want to get the job done. I I I know statistically, I'm closer to the end of my race than other people. I have I I have an uncle, I I ministered at his funeral, he lived to be a hundred years old. And uh so longevity is kind of good in my family. So I'm not on the brink of going out of here, but I don't know. I I want to see another generation rise up, and I want to I want to help and I want to put something in their hands. I, you know, and that's what this information can do. This book can help spur on another generation that the things that God has done in me, God'll do for somewhere else. You know, it's it's not all in the past. God, you know, I I I put this in the book about when I first got saved.

Spiritual Authority And Standing Firm

SPEAKER_01 43:05

I was uh this was in 1975, and the pastor being a good pastor, he he came to visit my house because I was the only one in my house that was, you know, a Christian and going to church. And and he wanted to talk to my mom. And uh he comes, he and his wife, Madeline, uh, and our dog, we we we trained up our dog from a puppy. He was really grown. And this dog started barking and howling. And I thought, my goodness. And so I scolded him, told him to quit, but he wouldn't. So finally I put him down in the basement. And and so the pastor's talking to my mom about you know the gospel, giving her the gospel. And the dog's down there in the basement. He is howling. I've never heard of howl.

SPEAKER_04 43:46

Howling?

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yeah, you go down there, and I said, Shut up, lucky. I go back upstairs, and same thing. He's howling, he's barking. What's going on? Again, I'm I'm just a rookie Christian, and I go down there, and then it hits me. It hits me. It's not lucky. There's a spirit working here. And the first thing I said is that God forgive me. I'm trying to take care of a spiritual thing in the flesh by kicking, you know, hollering, scalding. That's not that's not going to get rid of any devils. And I didn't pray God to get rid of the devil either. God give us authority. He says, I give you power over all the power of the enemy. I give you authority to cast out devils. That's what Jesus said. Jesus did that. I'm his follower. He said, I can do that. And so I after repenting, I looked and I said to the Spirit, I said, in the name of Jesus Christ, get out of here. God is my witness. The dog never whimpered or whined as I went back upstairs. Wow. And then he he continued to talk to my my mom. And uh and later she did she did come to know the Lord.

SPEAKER_04 44:50

She did.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Yes. You know, I tell you, we're we're in a spiritual battle. We need to know, you know, that we that these things are real and not to be afraid of them, but to know that God's given us authority. And these these mighty men in David's life and in the apostles, they knew this. They knew their calling. You know, when Paul was later on in his ministry, he was going to go to Jerusalem, and there was uh prophetic utterance saying that if you go there, there's bond and affliction awaiting you. But what was his response? None of these things move me. I don't count my life here. And oh God, how we need men and women today that are willing to go that way, are not just chasing the dollar, chasing fame. I want to do what God wants, you know, whatever he wants. I'll pay the price. If it means my life, I'll go. And um that that was these mighty men. I one of them mighty men, his name was Shama. I mean, what a name, Shama. Shama. But yeah, he was he was they were fighting the Philistines and he was in this uh patch. Some people call it a pea patch, it was like a lentils, I think, King James, and everybody left him. And and but yet he stayed there and he fought them and he won. And it says the Lord gave him victory that day. You know, there's some things that God won't do unless we stand. We've got to make the stand. As Paul said, having done all, stand, stand having your loins good about it. You know, stand in the Lord, stand in his power, stand in faith and let God do the God thing. We do our part, let God do the rest. And yeah, that that that's really what I really want to see in this book. I I I want to see this touch people's lives. I I heard one person make this mention, said you don't need favor with everybody. You don't need everybody like you. You just need one person. You know, Joseph, when he was in prison, he didn't need everybody like him, he just needed one person, Pharaoh. And yes, Pharaoh called him out. And overnight, you know, he became uh the the prime minister of Egypt, a great, a great leader. And then Esther, Esther didn't need everybody. She just needed one, and she had favor with the king, and it changed the whole situation around. And I I believe that that God will do that. I believe somehow this book will touch somebody and it will spark something in somebody else, and they'll get the word out, and God will raise up more and more mighty women, men and women, because it's not about gender, you know, right in Christ. There's neither male or female, Jew or Greek. It don't matter about the color of your skin or or your gender, it matters who's living inside of you. And I love what John wrote. He said, You are of God, little children, and have overcome them because greater is he that's in you than he that's in the world. And I'll tell you, when we start living that way, we'll see some changes.

SPEAKER_05 47:43

Such a powerful message. And and I feel so personally directly spoken to in this conversation.

Purpose Check And Final Words

SPEAKER_05 47:50

I, you know, if I can get personal for a moment, you know, I've I've had in my journey, my social media journey, I have had, you know, these this long kind of internal pause where I've been feeling like, am I uh living in my purpose? You know, are the things that I'm posting and sharing and and doing, are they what he wants me to be doing? And, you know, my answer kind of has been, I don't really think so. I don't really think so. And uh, you know, so it's it's been a bit of a time of ref reflection for me. And as I'm listening to you, as I'm learning about your book and and your message with it, um, I'm hearing it loud and clear, like yeah, he's speaking to you. You just need to be paying better attention. And um, so I I join you in that hope for that, you know, that one, hopefully many more than one. But like you said, if it touches that one person and uh kind of makes that light bulb go off in their head and say, okay, and gives them that encouragement and strength to um, you know, put down or set aside their fears and their doubts and their need to conform to this world, um, uh I think you will have well done your job, sir. So um absolutely wonderful. And and again, I feel very personally spoken to uh for this. And I have no doubt that there are going to be other people watching uh this interview and listening to this interview who feel the same way. So uh I I thank you for that. You you are you are truly uh being a good servant right now. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

So I'll just say you you're very talented and and thank you. You're a well-able speaker, and I'm telling you, God is using you, and I I'm just believing God to do even more in your life. There'll be opposition, sure. There'll be people that'll say, Don't do that. But in your heart, you're gonna know this. This is what I like about it. You're gonna know when God speaks in here, and He's gonna give you that peace. And in your mind, you might say, This is not making sense, this is not gonna make anything. Just go for it anyway. You know, I uh where I've come from, you know, I I I was the least likely to succeed in our in our family. I mean, I was going the wrong way. God's able to turn my life around. And I I just I just thank God. I I'm very humbled that God would choose me, really, and and to see lives change. I was I was in a service at the jail one, some years ago, and I was ministering to the women at that time, and uh all of them, man, all of them, it was just a room full of them, they all just wanted to pray and seek God. And and there was this one one inmate in the back. She said, She said, This is the first time I've ever been in church. That that humbled me. It had to be in Monroe County Jail the first time she was in church. And uh, and she talked about how that when she was raised up, her dad always put her down and criticized her, and she began to live out those words from her natural father. But I pray for her that she would live out the words of our Heavenly Father. Beautiful God cleanses and God changes, and your past doesn't mean that's what your future's got to be. You know, there's a God, He knows the end from the beginning, He's got a plan. Uh I I I say this a lot in Psalms uh 139. I am fearfully and wonderfully made. God wrote all the my days in the book before there was none of them, and God's got a plan for my life, he's got a plan for your life, Ilsa. And he will do his anointing, his spirit will open doors for you that otherwise they just wouldn't open up because it's about God, it's about what he wants to do, and he can do it in you. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

Amen. Amen. You took the word, you took the word right out of my mouth, amen to that. That's a beautiful thing. I'm gonna close on um if if readers could take away only one thing from from your book, if there was one message, one important takeaway, and it'd be the only one they could they could grab from it, what would you hope that it is?

SPEAKER_03 51:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

It would be just to seek the Lord and and to and to fill your life with people with like passion. That you know that that's they hung together, you know, those mighty men, they hung with David, they were with him thick and thin. The disciples, they got in trouble, and I think it was in Acts chapter four, uh, after being uh ridiculed by the religious leaders, they went to their own company and they began to pray. And they lifted up their voice and said, Lord, behold their threatenings. And he said, Grant unto your servants that with all boldness we may speak your word, and that signs and wonders would be done by the name of your holy child Jesus. And when they had prayed, they had prayed, the place was shaken, and they spoke the word with boldness. I'd uh get together with with people that are stronger than you, or at least as strong as you, and draw from that and grow together and get hooked up and don't get discouraged and draw or draw away from it. You know, persevere, keep going on.

SPEAKER_05 53:03

I love that perfect, perfect message for the times. Absolutely. Um, tell everyone where they can find your book and where they can find you if there's a website, any any place where they can find you. And of course, guys, I will put all of that in the show notes for everybody, but where can they find your book?

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Um, well, at Amazon, Amazon.com. They got books there. And uh you y'all y'all have seen the picture of it, you know. I mean, put forward again right there, you know, making of mighty men, and it's about women too. Um and you know, it it's I I know somebody said, Well, you know what, if you want to get just be free, you know, and I and I thought, you know, there's a proverb that says, buy the truth and sell it not. I know it's King James. And it's not that the truth is for sale, but sometimes you've got to put some skin in the game. It may be your time, your energy, you know. Uh, I think it's in Isaiah 55, he said, Why do you spend money for that which isn't bread and you labor for that which satisfies not? Some people are buying things, putting effort into things that's not profiting them.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

I I I look back at a time in my my own life when I was very spiritually hungry. This was back in the 80s, and and I I really wanted to hear uh from a man of God, anointed man of God. And it was he came to uh Knoxville, Tennessee, and my wife and I would grow up there, his name's R. W. Shambok, and uh he had literature on the table. I didn't, we we were living hand to mouth, and I spent my last $20 buying these little books, but they fed my soul. And I went to that meeting and and it was such a presence of God there. I'm telling you, we laughed, we cried, we shouted, and there was a young man in front of me. He was a teenager, he was with his dad, it looked like, and then when it came time for an altar call to receive salvation, that young man that came forward and I thought it's just it was just an overall great experience. Yeah, you know, sometimes we got to take a drive, go to a conference, do what it takes to get yourself fed and get built up in the Lord. You won't regret it. Right because it's it's well worth it.

SPEAKER_05 55:01

Agreed. I completely agree. Wonderful. Jackie, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so looking forward for everyone to watch this and and just uh get so much out of it like I have. So thank you again.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

I appreciate you. I I'm thankful for this uh this media outlet.

SPEAKER_05 55:19

Absolutely. All right, guys, thank you all for watching, and we will see you in the next episode. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

You've got a story worth sharing. Now it's time to tell it well. Whether you're an author, entrepreneur, influencer, or podcast guest, stepping in front of the camera or microphone can feel overwhelming. On the other side of the mic is your practical, encouraging guide to becoming a confident, authentic, and engaging interviewee. Written by media personality and best selling author Elsa Kurt. This book blends real world wisdom from hundreds of interviews with a touch of humor, grace, and heart. It's more than a how to. It's a roadmap to presence, professionalism, and peace in every conversation.