Where Intimidation Fails And Preparation Wins

What happens when a daughter writes two letters a week to her mom for ten years while breaking into one of the most male-dominated industries in America? You get a time-capsule memoir packed with real deals, real setbacks, and real strategies that still work. We’re joined by Dr. Mary Mitchell, who rose through the 1980s pulp, paper, and timber world negotiating 60 contracts at a time, feeding mills through strikes and shortages, and outmaneuvering intimidation with a calm, data-first style.

Mary walks us through the volatile market forces that defined the decade—interest rates near 20 percent, housing crashes, export booms—and how she turned chaos into leverage with scenario planning, meticulous market intel, and relentless relationship-building with everyone from tug dispatchers to scale houses. She unpacks her “plain vanilla” negotiation approach: ignore the theatrics, return to price and inventory, anticipate failure modes, and have ten counters ready when they hit. The stories are vivid: rescuing a mill with hog fuel dug from a forgotten valley, barging sawdust into San Francisco, and earning a rival’s backhanded compliment for never leaving a dime on the table.

We also talk about boundaries and resilience. Mary shares how she handled inappropriate advances by steering back to business, why preparation disarms bullies, and how confidence grows when you ask the “dumb” questions first. For students of negotiation, supply chain pros, and women navigating male-heavy fields, this conversation doubles as a practical playbook and a compelling narrative. Her letters are now a memoir, and her methods are as relevant to today’s complex markets as they were when strikes shut down mills and trucks lined the yard.

Grab the book on Kindle now, with paperback, hardback, and audio on the way. If the conversation helped you think sharper or negotiate braver, follow the show, share this episode with a friend, and leave a quick review so more listeners can find it.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 2:51 The Letters That Became A Memoir
• 6:07 Entering A Male-Dominated Industry
• 10:56 Surviving Tyrant Bosses And Earning Respect
• 16:20 The Volatile 1980s Market Whiplash
• 22:35 Strategy Frameworks And Scenario Planning
• 27:25 Personal Costs And Drawing Boundaries
• 32:24 Stockpiles, Strikes, And Creative Logistics
• 39:10 Mastering Negotiation And Plain Vanilla Tactics
• 46:10 Market Power Plays And Never Leaving A Dime

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Every conversation tells a story, and the best ones begin with honesty, courage, and a little curiosity. That's where Elsa Kurt comes in. She's an author, podcaster, and independent media personality, and this is where she brings real life to the table. Authors, thinkers, creators, leaders, everyday folks with extraordinary journeys. We sit down, we dig in, and we talk about what matters, what's messy, what's beautiful, and what just might inspire you to look at the world a little differently. So pour a cup of something good. Settle back and join me. This is Elsa Kurt Interviews, where truth has a stake and everyone's welcome.

SPEAKER_01: 0:42

Well, hey friends. Welcome back for another week of Elsa Kurt Interviews. I have another wonderful guest for you guys today and for myself. This is very selfish for me. I love having these guests on and talking about uh books and all of the wonderful things that that happened behind the scenes in book writing. This is no exception. I'll be talking to Dr. Mary Mitchell, and she is going to be sharing uh the backstory behind her absolutely fascinating memoir. Here's a little bit about her.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12

Today's guest is a woman who didn't just break glass ceilings. She walked through them without flinching, dusted off her blazer, and got right back to work. Dr. Mary Mitchell built her career in the bulk paper and timber industries. That's when the idea of a woman in those boardrooms sounded about as likely as finding rounds at Studio 54. Going on an adventure with a volatile, with someone who survived one very good pen.

SPEAKER_01: 2:12

Mary, I already love everything about this conversation we're about to have. Everything that you cover from the name of the book, of course I can do that, to the whole 80s, everything about the 80s. I'm so excited. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_03: 2:31

Well, I'm just tickled. You really nailed that intro. It's really great.

SPEAKER_01: 2:35

Oh, good. I'm so glad you liked it. I have so much fun doing those. It's it's just such a blast for me. And and and I think it's such a great way for everybody to get an idea of who they're going to get to know with the just a little bit of fun added to it. So I I I'm so excited. I want to I want to dive right in and I and I kind of want to start right from uh something a little more personal. So you built this memoir from letters that you wrote to your mother. Uh I would love to know what made you decide to save those letters? Because I know I've written letters in the past and I just toss them and never think twice about them, but you saved them. And I would love to know um what made you do that. And at what point did you realize that they told a much bigger story?

SPEAKER_03: 3:19

I didn't save them, my mother did.

SPEAKER_01: 3:21

Your mom did. Good on mom.

SPEAKER_03: 3:24

Yes, yes. She was so worried about me coming into the corporate world and the man's world. And I said, Mother, I will write you two letters a week. And I did that for 10 years. And she saved everyone. And she was a um the secretary for Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and her boss was a NATO delegate, so she had people from all over the world coming in, and she had felt she had to entertain them. So she would buy letters and binders and say, Would you like to know what my daughter's doing? And then people in her department would come in on Fridays and say, Can we take Mary's binders home and read them? Wow. Oh. A week before she died, she said, Do you want your letters back? And I was just in shock. And uh, that's the whole story. Good, bad, and ugly.

SPEAKER_01: 4:12

Wow, that is incredible. Oh, your mom is so awesome for having said. I'm sure she's awesome in every way. Um, but how awesome that she saved those. What she knew it was, she knew you had a treasure right there. She knew that's incredible.

SPEAKER_03: 4:28

She did. Oh, she was she was one of the most personable people. And so for talking to people who came in from all around the world, they they just came in and said, What's Mary Jr. doing?

SPEAKER_01: 4:40

That's so great. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, we're talking about the 80s, and and I think I have like really to be honest with you, I have like selective memory when it comes to what it was actually like for women in that era. And it's really hard for me, and probably for anyone who's a lot younger than me to imagine that the even in the 80s, you know, I think when we think about like the women's movement and women's rights and all of those things, we're thinking our minds go to like the 50s and the 60s and maybe even the 70s, but the 80s is a little harder to wrap your brain around. For me, I was a teenager and and just, you know, living my best wild teenager life. I don't think I knew the challenges that were actually there for women in the working world. Um, but you certainly did. You know, when most women were told to find safe jobs, you stepped direct directly into some of the most male-dominated industries in America. So I have to know, because this is your lane was and is a very unique one, I think. Um, the pulp, paper, and timber industry. It already sounds masculine. So give me a little backhand, doesn't it? Tell me a little bit about how that even happened.

SPEAKER_03: 6:02

Well, I had put my husband through college and we were in Columbus, Ohio. And when he was done, I said, I I want to go to college too. But I had been working in a lumber wholesale office and I love the smell of wood. I love the people. So I went down to Ohio State, which is three miles from me, flipped through their course catalog. Here was Forest Industries Management with a minor in sawmill management, how to design a sawmill, how to, how to any all the different parts of it. So I had a job three days after graduation with Crown Cellar back in Portland, and I was from Ohio. And they had hired, they had to not have women in management. They hired three women at the same time. We all went through the routine of finding out the corporation. Within two years, I was the only one left. Wow, no, it was hard. Yeah. My first boss the first day said, I just want to know why you're not home baking cookies. And I just started laughing. It was like, that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01: 7:05

Yeah. Wow. So you, I mean, you obviously you kind of took things with a grain of salt and laughed off, and you never really gave them any quarter, did you? You like was it humor that you used to diffuse, or did you have to get kind of tough with them? And I don't want you to give away too much that might be in the book, but little little glimpses if you could, because that's amazing to me.

SPEAKER_03: 7:29

I've only had two tyrant bosses in my life, and one of them was there in the in the 80s, and he he was so challenging. He in his previous business, he at Boise Cascade, people would say when he walked down the aisle, people would throw up. I mean, that's how of a tyrant he was. And I thought, I'm not gonna cuss on here, but it was like bull. And so every time he came after me because my job was the highest cost for the whole Pult mill. It was I outspent every other cost. And so he was always on my case. But I didn't come back at him, I was in trouble. So I'd always come right back at him in a nice way. Sure. And uh I later found out as one time I was gonna quit again because I thought he wanted me to quit. He said, Heck no, you're the broad, you how did he say that? You are the pushiest bra I ever met.

SPEAKER_01: 8:31

So he respected you. He actually respected you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 8:35

Yeah, he did.

SPEAKER_01: 8:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 8:37

That was interesting. And then when I did, my it was affecting my health. It was such a tough time. So when I got another job in California and I went into town, I gave him two weeks notice. He didn't speak to me again. He was so offended that I would leave. So I didn't know that, you know. He had a good heart, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 9:00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That gruff exterior, there was actually a good heart underneath all of that. Um how was it? What was it in you that made it that you weren't intimidated by him, by these people? And I know that there was some level of it. I guess it's was probably more of you didn't let it show. How did you do that? Because I feel like that would be a master class for for anyone, but particularly for women going into maybe male-dominated fields. Like, what did you do? How did you do that?

SPEAKER_03: 9:38

It it was my mom. She said, Mary, you can do anything. Just know that you can you can do anything. So I was uh in my job at the lumber office. Uh the tyrant was the owner, and in a 15-person office within a year, 15 people left and were replaced. They couldn't stand working for him. I loved it. He was really, he said, do it my way or the highway. And I said, I'll do it your way. So I always got along. And and it's interesting when you get challenged, like when my uh boss there at Fort Townsend. Oh, it's it's well anyway, it was so embarrassing to be with him and one of my customers and a vice president of another company, and he was just bad. He just he was just bad all the way. Um the vice president had a table in his sitting room on top of a skyscraper in Vancouver. And it was all crystal with crystal, two crystal bowls. And my boss sat down, crossed his legs, and started ticking the top of the table with his foot.

SPEAKER_00: 10:50

No.

SPEAKER_03: 10:54

Then he started smoking.

SPEAKER_01: 10:56

Oh boy. Yeah, then you could, right? Back then it probably was I was just what can you say?

SPEAKER_03: 11:02

You can't say he put his cigarettes out in these crystal bowls.

SPEAKER_00: 11:07

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03: 11:07

And my cohorts there and I just looked at one another. It's nothing you can do. He's doing his thing, he's doing intimidation things. So it's nothing to get upset about because it didn't reflect on me.

SPEAKER_01: 11:20

Yeah, yeah, what a great perspective to have. And how would you, if you don't mind my asking, how old were you during this time frame? Like in your 20s, right?

SPEAKER_03: 11:28

Well, actually, I was like going to college and I graduated when I was 29. I went to early 30s.

SPEAKER_01: 11:34

Yeah, okay. So yeah, you're a little bit older, you're a little bit more self-confidence than a green 20-something year old. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 11:44

The other ladies didn't make it.

SPEAKER_01: 11:46

Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense because I know in my 20s, I was, you know, I I did I I didn't have that kind of backbone to be able to stand up for myself and to be able to take things in stride the way that you're older uh did when you're older, uh, or can when you're older, where you you just you're less bothered by things because you've seen more. You've seen more, you've had more life experiences, and you're just not going to be, you know, bowled over by anyone in that way. But I still, I just I can't even imagine being in a room like that and just, you know, telling yourself that you're not responsible for this person's behavior and to just kind of emotionally step back from it and just let it happen. That's not easy at all.

SPEAKER_03: 12:36

Well, it's kind of amazing when you are looking from the outside, even though you're sitting right there and he's doing his thing, it doesn't reflect on me. People go, Boy, how did you work for that guy?

SPEAKER_01: 12:46

You know, so yeah, absolutely. It took a it takes a special kind of person to to be able to withstand that. And uh as you said yourself, you know, the the other the others that started off with you did not make it, so it's wild. Um, now I I I'm so fascinated by anything to do with the 80s because it's part nostalgia for me and it's part like I kind of said earlier, it's kind of like learning about an era that I was part of, but also wasn't a part of in so many ways. Um you described the era as being volatile. Can you give kind of like a I don't know, like a snapshot of what that meant behind the scenes? And I know that was a big part of it, but um some other scenarios and types of things that was going on in that time frame.

SPEAKER_03: 13:35

When I was hired by Crown Zaling back, um they hired me to buy wood waste from sawmills for two paper mills on in Puget Sands. And as soon as all their pulp mills went on strike, there were like 19 pulp mills in the whole Western US that went on strike, you had contracts with sawmills that you had to take their wood waste. And so I wasn't ready, but they said, you gotta go, you gotta go deal with this. So I was pretty well thrown into dealing with the sawmills because we had a contract to take their waste. What am I gonna do with it? I don't need it, and so I had to find places to stockpile it. I had to do whatever I could to keep the sawmills running because they would appreciate that. Sure. But at the same time, I didn't need it, and so it was a very complex uh situation. Then you stockpile it, and then you have to pick it back up and use it when now the pulp mills don't need it. So it was it was one or the other. I uh you may not remember in the 80s, the prime rate interest rate hit 20%, and the housing loan rate hit 18.5%. So housing was in the tubes, the world paper market was hot, and they needed more chips, and the sawmill shut down, and so it was crazy. And then six months later, the opposite. So it was always um trying to figure out figure out what to do. And there's this great book written by uh Charles Keppner and Ben Benjamin Trego called Keppner Trego. Best advice on negotiating I ever had, thank God. I read it in college. You do this, this, this, you figure out what you're gonna do, and then for everything you didn't think about, come up with five things that might happen that would blow your mind. And I tell you during the 80s they happened. Yeah, wow. And then pick 10 things you could do if that happens. So you've already anticipated what you're gonna do if the crazy thing happened and the crazy thing happened.

SPEAKER_01: 15:55

Wow, yeah, everything crazy that could happen did happen, right?

SPEAKER_03: 16:00

Oh my goodness. Anybody in business, just it's um the rational, the new rational manager. It's just packed full of stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01: 16:11

Yeah, and uh again, you know, this is an era where it's a male-dominated field. All of the workforces for the most part were male dominated. Women in those fields were usually secretaries and you know, kind of subservient lesser roles, not running, you know, not doing what you were doing. What was, you know, your mom, of course, was super supportive and encouraging. Uh, you said you were, I believe, married at the at that time. Um, what was your husband's reaction to all of this? Because you had to have been, you know, for the the tough exterior that you had to put on at work when you got home, you know, you were, I would, I would imagine, able to kind of let that down a little bit, invent and say, Oh, they're saying this, they're doing this, they had me do this. You know, what was his reaction and response to the world that you were kind of thrust into?

SPEAKER_03: 17:06

We had been married 20 years before I got that job. And he was working for Bell Labs as an engineer. He told all our friends and family, I'm retiring now. Mary's got a good job. Wow. Oh my god. So I didn't share anything with him. But after I was working such long hours, he started having an affair with my neighbor lady.

SPEAKER_00: 17:33

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_03: 17:35

We have an airplane which we used to fly all around the country, but uh I would I came home one day and the the lounge chairs were out in the grass and Sun Tan Lotion was there, and two wine glasses and they were in the dishwasher. I don't I this is not working out well for me. Yeah. One day I got home and I said, How was your day? And he said, Oh, Diana and I flew up to the San Juan Islands and had lunch. I went. That's I'm done.

SPEAKER_01: 18:06

I love my favorite part, and I have two favorite parts about that story right now. One, that you're laughing. I love that. And two, that it was just so casual that you said, Well, we had a plane that we flew around. You know that's not what most of us have in our driveway, right? We don't have a plane that we have. I love the casualness of, yeah, we would just hop on the plane and fly around. Yeah, I love that. Um, I you know, it's so clear to me that your attitude of of perseverance and just strength just shines right through. Like nothing is gonna take you down. And and I, and that that is so clear to me that that is probably one of the biggest besides your obvious intellect, um, your your tenacity it definitely shines through that nothing was gonna, and you're you're I wouldn't say that it's probably not fair to say that you were an anomaly uh for the time, but you probably were more unique. Were you also surrounded by beside your mom, uh other women of the same mindset, or were your girlfriends at the time? Like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03: 19:18

I didn't have time for anything.

SPEAKER_01: 19:20

No, no time whatsoever. You're too busy. Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_03: 19:23

Yeah, when I decided to go to college, I thought I'm going three years round, round you know, all year round because I'm not here to party, I'm here to get somewhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:33

What would you say if you could say something? And I know we're in a different world right now, but um, when you look back at the culture of those workplaces, what would shock younger women today the most? Because they're so they maybe don't believe that they are, but they are so protected now in so many ways, whereas you certainly were not, and your you know, counterparts uh in the the workforce like that were not. What do you is there anything you didn't come up with that would just shock them to the core right now.

SPEAKER_03: 20:05

They're already going through shock. Yeah. In a male-dominated industry, it's a male-dominated industry. I mean, they're nicer and they're sweeter, but they also uh um can be a little forward in if you're here in this job, surely, you know, come home with me and rub my back, kind of things like that. And the the advice I have for any woman in business like that is always stick to the business. Don't respond to what they're saying, go back to price, go back to inventory, go back to the business. And they get tired and they go, okay, okay, well, do the business.

SPEAKER_01: 20:43

Right, right. Yeah. And so, and you know, and that is such the cliche trap of any um business relationship. Of course, you know, businesses now are, you know, the majority. I'm sure there's still a few that are um, you know, so male dominated, but overall, you know, most of the professions are are commingled and everything. Um, but that is absolutely one of the biggest cliches, the office romances that always go south and always become a problem. And, you know, we are still as advanced as we are, uh, we still are attached to those, those traditional mindsets that it's always the woman that gets branded, right? And if, you know, and that has not changed. I don't care what anybody says, that has not changed. They're not talking about the guy and calling her nasty names and you know, um, implying that she sleeps around and all of that stuff. Or if they do say it, they're he's getting a pat on the back and she's getting, you know, the evil eye. Um, but yes, I that is so true, and that holds still today, true. That just don't do it, don't get involved, stay on task on the job. That's like the best advice ever.

SPEAKER_03: 21:57

It is. And one of the things corporations do now is they have lawyers that make you sign an agreement every year. You are not gonna do this, you're gonna stay on business, and and that helps a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 22:09

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Now, because you didn't really have again any of those real protections, no, you know, nobody in HR looking out for your your benefit there, were there times where you felt like throwing in the towel and just being done with it, or did it just make you kind of sink in harder, deeper? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 22:30

I'm not gonna let anybody stop me from doing this job. I I will find a way, I'll find a way. You know, when I first went up to Puget Sound, um the person who was the wood fiber supply buyer that I was becoming had been retired three months. And so uh the pulp mill manager wanted control over my job, but Portland had control over my job. So he tried everything to get me to quit. He complained to Portland, he just did everything, and they knew what he was doing. The person that helped so much when I got up there, he gave the they gave me an office in the basement. Oh next to the janitor. Showing you the love there. It was so funny. And the janitor had all the news about everything that's ever happened and who was who and who was doing what. I we had the greatest conversation, so I just I just knew everything. The manager still wished that um he could get rid of me because he wanted my job under him because it was it was 30 million dollars a year that I spent for their money.

SPEAKER_00: 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:40

Um so anyway, I I have always talked to the people you wouldn't talk to. I'll talk to the scale scale health manager, I'll talk to the truck driver who's in the parking lot, I'll talk to anybody that can tell me things that are going on in the business that I might not know. So I was always gathering information.

SPEAKER_01: 24:02

I just I'm just blown away at how savvy you were, like just so knowledgeable, like instinctually knowledgeable. And of course, I know you have the the college degrees and everything and that type of training, but the instinct is something I don't know if it can be taught because it's instinct, like you just knew uh that that's such a gift, and and if you could bottle it and sell it to people, right? You'd be a a trillionaire because it's it's such a valuable, um it's such an aval a valuable ability to have to be able to read people, to know a different way to approach things. And and of course, in in that world, you you kind of it was either sink or swim, right? Like that was that was it. You had to do it. Incredible. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 24:55

And I think some women, maybe just some new people, and just don't want to ask the hard questions because they don't want to show people they don't know anything. Yes. I was asking everybody about everything. And I was thinking, you know, when I finally left PewTit Sound, um got a job in California, same type of job buying wood, but it was for a wood firedpower plant that used a hundred semi-trockloads a day of wood waste seven days a week. And the company that owned it had a had a consultant do a report, and the report said, Oh, you can get all that wood within 90 miles of the power plant. Why in the world? Most of that wood went to Japan because it was wood for paper. Oh it was an amazing experience. Yeah. So things happened that I just dug in, hired a couple people in, and we asked everybody about everything. I even brought in chips from Montana to California. Wow. Brought in a huge barge of chips from Vancouver, Canada into San Francisco. I mean, whatever it took, we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01: 26:08

Did you get pushback on that? I mean, because were you thinking outside of the box, even with those ideas? Like were that that was just all you came up with that, you said this is what we're gonna do. Was there pushback on that? It could be on because it sounds like it was out of the box a little bit.

SPEAKER_03: 26:24

Yeah, it was because um I worked for another company for this plant. And if we didn't do it, if we didn't get them uh chips and sawdust and all that, major penalties. And so at one point, it was only like three months into the job, my boss, who was a VP down south, said, You need to cancel that part of the contract, you need to get the contract amended that uh took us off the hook for penalties. I said, but then I'll lose my job. He goes, Well, you know, that's the way it goes. And I I did it, and it was great. Wow. That's wild. I talked to them about how much revenue they would lose from PG and if I ran them out of wood.

SPEAKER_05: 27:10

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 27:12

And they went, oh suddenly their eyes were opened very wide, right?

unknown: 27:20

It was.

SPEAKER_03: 27:21

And one of the fun stories, if you don't mind, is with Sierra Pacific Industries, the biggest uh forest landowner and owner of sawmills in the country. Their owner was Red Emerson, historic figure in in the industry. He was building a small log sawmill about 10 miles from the power plant before we started. So I went to him and I said, you know, I'd like to buy the wood waste that you're gonna have, about 15 loaves a day. I needed 100, but that was good. And uh and he said, Well, it's gonna cost you. And I said, Well, here's the market. And he goes, Oh no, no, no, I I'm gonna keep the wood waste. And so I hired a log buyer and we started buying logs and chipped them up. Well, I didn't need his wood waste. And a few months later he called me and says, Okay, okay, I'm ready to sell it to you. So I all these contracts you negotiate every three months, every three months, 60 contracts. Anyway, so uh I would go in and meet with Red, and I knew what was going on in the market, and I we would talk and he would go, Oh, you're right, price should go up or down, whatever. Well, when um he retired, and I went to a another position, and I saw his vice president downtown one day, and I said, Oh, how's Red doing? He says, Oh, he's doing great, but I'll tell you what, every time he hears your name, he goes, That darn woman never left a dime on the table.

SPEAKER_01: 28:57

And I thought, so a little pat on the shoulder there, a pat on the back, right? So, yeah, so obviously you were you were a master negotiator. I mean, that definitely was your you know, big part of your forte there. Um, tell me about you have something called the plain vanilla approach. Explain that and and how that works so well.

SPEAKER_03: 29:23

When I hired a log buyer who was recommended to me as a good good guy, good negotiator. I said, okay, well, go here and talk to these people about logs. And and I I kind of had a feeling like, okay, I'm gonna go with you. I'm not gonna say anything, I'm gonna go with you. So we walk into this manager's office, and on the back wall were pictures of fish, every kind of fish you could think of, every kind of stream, his wall was full of fishing pictures. And my log buyer, instead of ignoring it because it's a it's uh an intimidation thing, he goes to the fish and he goes, Where did you catch these? Tell me the stories. I'm like, Oh my god. You don't do that, they're intimidating you with pictures like that. Then then you become buddies, and then you can't get the good price, and then you know, so I went back to my office and I thought, how did I what did I really learn? And so I wrote down my 10 tips and he read them and he was totally blown away. And within two months, he was really a good negotiator. And so I put it in the book because I think many women are intimidated by negotiation. I mean, there's so many ways. Um, there's an example of this one sawmill I went to when I came to California, and uh they ushered me into the manager's office, which tells you he thinks highly of himself, and it was very dark in there, and he said, sit down in front of my desk. And immediately I was six inches lower than he was. So he's looking down at me. Yeah, first red flag. Second was there were animal heads from every animal in Africa you can think of, all around the room. I ignored it. He's like looking around the room, he's like and I went right to business, right to business. Yeah, well, that wasn't working. So he said, let's go sit in the corner of the office where there's two chairs and a lamp and a table in between. Sat down there, and he's waiting for me to say something because the lamp was made out of a zebra's leg.

SPEAKER_01: 31:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 31:40

I ignored it. Yeah, straight to business. He he gave up.

SPEAKER_01: 31:45

Oh, you drove him crazy. You destroyed every tactic that he tried to use against you. Oh my goodness. Yeah. How did you know? Was that instinct? Was that had you taken a course? Did you like did you just intuitively know and understand what he was what he was trying to do?

SPEAKER_03: 32:06

Well, when I initially started, it it would didn't take me but a couple of weeks to realize most of the men I was gonna negotiate love to intimidate women. This is bull, I'm not gonna do that. And so I started reading more about negotiation. And Ketna Trigo is really good about that in your book. And um, and so I knew if they're trying to intimidate you, you're gonna lose. And there's no way I'm gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01: 32:33

Oh, I love that. I knew I knew right from the get-go, I liked you, like right off the bat. I'm like, oh, she's so like you're just such a a great role model for young women to going into business. And um, I I just can you teach us all a course? Can you get like I'm not even going into business? Like, I just this is what I do, you know. I do I do mostly all my stuff by myself, but I still feel like I just want to know the things that you know, you know, if if you can teach what you know intuitively, and of course, that you've learned uh through your experiences and all of that, it's so beneficial, such a game changer. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03: 33:13

My 10 tips, it's interesting. Uh in California, I met a woman who ran a church that I we really became good friends. And her husband was an instructor at um one of the colleges near Sacramento. And his wife said, You ought to read Mary's 10 tips of negotiation. And he read it and went, God, half of these I didn't even think about. He sent it to a person who uh taught negotiation at San Diego State, and he goes, There are some things here I didn't think about. So I thought, for some reason, anybody can buy the book and send the appendix.

SPEAKER_01: 33:49

Yes, yes, absolutely. Buy that book that's a game changer. And because so much of it is, I mean, probably all of it is psychology. It's just psychology and and you know, behavior uh uh analysis and all this, and be able to read body language, you know, all of those things that, you know, there are people out there, there are behavioral scientists or are, you know, learning this and teaching this. And and it is, you know, to be able to know to do these things, it just changes the whole playing field for, you know, anyone who understands all of that. And, you know, again, we're talking and I keep harping on it, guys, because it's such a different time, it's such a different mentality, everything. This was back in the 80s that you were figuring all of this out. It's just uh it just blows my mind. Now, um, did you have like throughout any of this, did you have any kind of mentor who was kind of like guiding you in any way? Or it was just just like a hundred percent your upbringing and your just intuitive knowledge?

SPEAKER_03: 35:01

Well, at Crown Zeller Back, they had um several pulp mills in the Northwest, and every three or four months, we all the wood fiber buyers would get together and we would compare notes. What do you think the market's gonna do? What are you gonna do if this happens, and so on. And the chip buyer, we call them chip buyers, uh, they were very helpful, very helpful, getting me on my feet. They were nice that I was there. My boss was as helpful as he could be, so that was nice. They didn't, well, they did, they were helpful, but when the mills went on strike, they needed somebody in Puget Sam because the buyer had been retired three months. So they said, sorry to dump you up there, but there you are. Here you go, right? Yeah. So these barges were sitting at the dock and being unloaded, and I called it was Foss Launch and Tug. Tug was the name of the company. So I called and I said, Where are these barges coming from? Because I had no idea. Nobody, and so their um main supervisor came over the next day and went over all of it with me. Trying to have these trucks coming in. Nobody could tell me where they're coming from. So I called the trucking company and Gary Dynas, bless his heart, came over and he took me for two days around to every mill I was getting uh wood waste from. Told me complexity, you know, all the things that go wrong. And so I had some really great people in the industry. Nice, very helpful.

SPEAKER_01: 36:33

Just random. How many mills was that? Was like how many mills were you going to at that point for that?

SPEAKER_03: 36:39

60 contracts.

SPEAKER_01: 36:40

Oh wow, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 36:41

And so, you know, some are small, some are big.

SPEAKER_05: 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:45

But every one of them was working, depending on the market. They'd be shut down for two weeks on one shift, on three shifts, on no shift. It was just yeah, anyway, it's very volatile.

SPEAKER_01: 36:58

Wow, I know. I'm just I'm just awed by it all. Um, tell me, I know there, there, I I can tell you you love to laugh and you have a great sense of humor. And I would love to know if you can think of maybe something from the book, if it's in the book and you're willing to share a little snippet. Uh, what what's one of the funnier memories that you have of that time that still kind of makes you laugh a little bit?

SPEAKER_03: 37:23

Oh, uh in the Port Angeles pulp mill. They really resented me being a buyer. So they did everything to keep me away. And the manager gave his controller charge of all the wood waste. Well, it wasn't two weeks later that the controller went on vacation and the whole mill went to hell. I mean, they ran out of Hogfield, they ran out of, they were like one day away from running out of wood to make paper out of. I happened to stop by and said, just say hi. He goes, Do you see what's going on out there? And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, I do. Can you fix it? I went, of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:06

Sure I can. Of course I can do that.

SPEAKER_03: 38:11

That afternoon, I mean it's a God thing, actually. That afternoon, a landowner west of Port Angeles called me and he said, I years ago, nobody could get rid of their hot fuel. So I let them fill up a valley on my property with it. I heard you're a little short. Come out here and dig it up. So within 24 hours, I had a front-end loader, self-unloading trucks, and we were bringing all that hot fuel in, and you know, I just had to laugh. And the manager looked at me and said, Can you give me a plan of how you do this and I'll let you do it? I said, Of course.

SPEAKER_01: 38:55

Of course I can do that. Jay, I'm having a hard time wondering where you came up with the title for this. Oh, I love it. So your yes, I can came before you even knew if you could, right? Like that's that's kind of like the gist of it. Like, yes, I can do that. You're gonna give the answer of yes, I can, and then you're gonna figure out how you can do it after the fact, right?

SPEAKER_03: 39:21

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 39:22

I love that.

SPEAKER_03: 39:23

Calling people, even competitors. One time I was looking for a barge of sawdust, and we were gonna run, it takes a mix of chips and soddists to make paper, and we were gonna run out in two days. And I'm like, God, I can't find a barge of sawdust anywhere. My competitor called me and he said, There's a barge of sawdust here that they don't need. And I called it up and got it the next day. So a lot of you know, helping each other. Yeah, home office.

SPEAKER_01: 39:52

Yeah, I did not expect that the help would be there like that from the competitor. So that's actually pretty cool. That's a that's a nice Nice surprise there.

SPEAKER_03: 40:01

Well, it takes a level of respect for each other.

SPEAKER_01: 40:04

Yeah. Yeah. That's really nice. Now, when you were going through these letters, because that that in itself had to be such an experience to be re-reading those letters all over again. Oh my goodness. It it just had to have taken you back into that that time, that that mindset and and all of the things. Um, tell me a little bit about what that was like for you to take these letters and now, you know, of course, the whole rereading them and revisiting the that time. Um, what was it like for you putting it together in book form? What did you find it easy, challenging, a mixture of both, fun, terrifying, daunting, anything?

SPEAKER_03: 40:54

All of the above. All of the above. And I put them away because I really didn't want to read them. Six months later, I thought, okay, get them out. And I thought, okay, type them up for posterity. And it was 123 type pages.

SPEAKER_05: 41:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 41:10

And that's my memoir. Yeah, wow. And I I wanted it to be realistic, and it was almost word for word. I left out when our neighbors came over for dinner and stuff like that. But anything about business? Because she wanted to know.

SPEAKER_01: 41:26

Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Your mom sounds like she was uh a bit of an uh innovator, a little bit of an outside of the box thinker for the time, also. So it sounds like it was well passed down. I I think that's so wonderful.

SPEAKER_03: 41:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:45

Um, let's see. What else do I ask you? We're there's so many great things. I asked you about your funny moments. I love that. I asked you about your mentor. You know, we live in a world obsessed with buzzwords like female empowerment. Um, but you actually live that. That was your reality. Like you were female empowerment before it was a buzzword. Um, what do modern conversations about women and leadership get right? And what do they get wrong, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_03: 42:16

It I think it's the simple part. Anytime you're trying to be in they're trying to intimidate you, just realize that. And if you go along with it, you're gonna lose whatever it is that you're negotiating for. But also when it gets personal, um how many times I was somebody had a sore back and wanted me to come home with them to because his wife had him, blah blah blah. No, stay with the business. And they respect that. You know, then they don't do it again, which is the bad part. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:51

Yeah, absolutely. That's so true. Um, if your if the if your book were to become a required reading in business schools, let's just imagine that it did. Um, what would be the single lesson you hope that they take away from it?

SPEAKER_03: 43:12

Know your market, know the people in the market in every position you can, because sometimes it's the guy that moves the barge to the dock that's got more information than anybody or the janitor. Talk to everybody. Don't think they're low enough not to talk to you. Just build your build your framework of I know the pulse of everything that's going on. Because in Puget Sound, for instance, negotiating 60 contracts every three months, I had to do it quickly, so I had to know everything. What every sawmill was doing, what every every every every inventory at the pump mills, um were all the trucks running, were all the barges running, I had all the stuff. So I had about 15 things that were on my checklist to know what is the current condition. And my uh winning point on that is at one point I told my boss in Portland, chips were running around$100 a ton. I think I can get them down 30%. And he goes, ah, no, no, no, no, no. And he checked with the other chip buyers and they go, Oh, Mary, that's ridiculous. I said, I'll bet you each crown royal that I'll get it done. And they said, Hey, piece of cake, you you won't get that. So I um met with the key major supplier, and he only gave me 15 minutes to tell my story, and he tried to put coals in it. Yeah, after 15 minutes, he goes, damn, sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 44:47

It's okay.

SPEAKER_03: 44:49

Okay, okay. So I had five fifths of crown the room.

SPEAKER_01: 44:55

That's pretty awesome. And and by the way, you know, I am I'm well aware what a male-dominated world would sound like and and can sound like. So I just want to commend you for not having that that trucker mouth on because if you do, you kept that in check this whole time. It it has taken me, uh, I I'm in the I'm in the very, very difficult process of learning how to not swear, by the way, and I'm failing miserably most of the time. So yeah, that it just you gave me a chuckle with that because I I could just imagine what those the language sounded like. So if you were a um, you know, just a sweet young innocent girl of the 80s being dropped into that world with the kind of language and and mentality that was probably just a matter of course for the for the era, um, it probably would have been quite the eye-opener. So fortunately, you were unfazed like you were.

SPEAKER_05: 46:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 46:03

Oh my goodness. Mary, um, tell everyone where they can find your book. And if you're doing, I don't, I'm sorry, I I don't know if you're doing any book signing appearances, but if you are, feel free to let people know where you're gonna be and where you can find you and all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 46:17

Well, this is uh we're just at the beginning of the publishing, and right now it's on Kindle on Amazon, and within two weeks, the paperback will be available, then the hardback, and then the audio. So it'll all be the it's all be unfolding over this next month. And um it's it's very, very exciting. So we'll see how it comes.

SPEAKER_01: 46:38

Wonderful. I'm so excited for you. I'm excited, even more than I'm excited for you. I'm excited for the people who read this book, and and I am going to very strongly encourage that it becomes some curriculum in a business school because it sounds like it is delivered in a way that would resonate and really mean something instead of like just dry, you know, manual material. So yeah, I you know, I'm gonna vote for that if I could. If I if I could, I would. You did. You just there. I put it out into the universe, so you know.

SPEAKER_03: 47:14

Oh I think if anybody in college right now has a chance to take a negotiation course, they should. Business writing, oh, that's a big one. Gotta learn the business writing. And um dealing with people, dealing with difficult people, that's really important.

SPEAKER_01: 47:32

And and you know, I think more than ever right now, um, that is a a lacking skill because we we've hit a point in time where uh where our our egos and our ourselves, I'm generalizing, um, are very fragile and we we are not capable. We're we haven't been raising young adults capable of handling those situations. So find a way, guys, because you're gonna need it if you want to be playing in the real world. If you want to play with the big dogs, you better figure it out, kids.

SPEAKER_05: 48:06

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 48:08

Oh, Mary, again, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Uh, I enjoyed learning all about this, and and I can't wait to check out your book. And uh guys, everyone watching and listening, they will be the uh link for the book will be in the show notes, and you'll be able to find everything about Mary Mitchell and her book uh right there. So uh make sure you do. And after you read it, make sure you go and review it on Amazon. We ask you guys this every chance we get because it is so critically important to help other people find the book. So, Mary, thank you again for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03: 48:44

I so appreciate you, and it's been totally delightful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 48:47

Oh, good. I'm so glad. Take care, and we'll see you guys next week.

SPEAKER_02: 48:52

From small town love stories to battles of truth and loyalty, Elsa Kurt's books follow the same heartbeat. Ordinary people facing extraordinary moments. You'll find romance, drama, second chances, even a peek behind the microphone in a newest release. Multiple genres, different worlds, same thread. Old truth, real face, no politics.