Left Behind on the Mountain: The John Chapman Story

Lori Longfritz shares the extraordinary story of her brother John Chapman, a US Air Force Combat Controller who was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor 16 years after being left for dead on an Afghan mountaintop where he continued fighting alone for over an hour.

• John Chapman was a compassionate, brave individual from childhood who stood up to bullies and showed kindness to everyone
• The battle on Takur Ghar Mountain was part of a larger operation where Chapman was embedded with a SEAL Team Six unit
• After being wounded and mistakenly reported as dead, Chapman regained consciousness and continued fighting alone
• Multiple attempts by the family to have Chapman's Air Force Cross upgraded were blocked for years
• Video evidence from a CIA drone and AC-130 gunship ultimately proved Chapman's continued fight after being left behind
• Chapman was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor in 2018, making him the first enlisted Air Force recipient since Vietnam
• Lori describes institutional resistance and attempts to suppress the truth about what happened on the mountain
• The First There Foundation now supports combat controllers and other military/first responders with mental health resources

Visit FirstThere.org to learn more about the foundation's work supporting military personnel, law enforcement and first responders. Both books about John Chapman's story are available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to John Chapman's Story
• 4:27 Who John Was: The Compassionate Brother
• 16:36 The Battle on Takur Ghar Mountain
• 25:47 Fighting for the Truth After Death
• 35:39 The Medal of Honor Journey
• 43:17 Standing Against Corruption and Cover-ups
• 51:42 The Path Forward and First There Foundation

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

She's the voice behind the viral comedy, bold commentary and truth-packed interviews that cut through the chaos.

Speaker 2: 0:06

Author, brand creator, proud conservative Christian. This is Elsa Kurt. Welcome to the show that always brings bold faith, real truth and no apologies. Well, hey, my friends, welcome for a very special interview. Special episode we're going to have Lori Longfritz on. So here's the backstory In March of 2002, us Air Force Combat Controller John Chapman was left behind on a mountaintop in Afghanistan. He was wounded, alone and surrounded, and he continued to fight for over an hour to protect the very teammates who had unknowingly retreated without him. He died saving lives that day, and for years, that part of the story remained buried, disputed and, in some circles, deliberately ignored. It took 16 years, a mountain of evidence and the unrelenting advocacy of his family, especially his sister Lori, for the truth to be formally recognized. In 2018, john Chapman was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.

Speaker 3: 1:12

We're gathered together this afternoon to pay tribute to a fallen warrior, a great warrior, Technical Sergeant John Chapman, and to award him our nation's highest and most revered military honor.

Speaker 2: 1:29

But, as Lori will tell you, that wasn't the end of the fight and in many ways, it was just the beginning. So join me in welcoming Lori with us today. Hi, lori, thank you so much for being here. Thanks, elsa, thanks for having me, absolutely. So. You know it's such an incredible story and you know I really want to start by saying thank you to John, of course, and to your family, for, you know, a sacrifice that so many of us are so fortunate to not ever have to experience. So we thank you for that and we're sorry for that for your family, for what they've gone through and what they're still going through, what you're going through.

Speaker 1: 2:09

Thank you. We never expected it really either, because John was just growing up and you know he, he I don't want to say he never failed at anything, but if he struggled with something he pushed through until he made it and so, so, and we didn't know what combat control was. We had no idea a lot of most of what he was doing in that capacity. So I think for most of us, if not all of us, we just assumed that he would always be fine, you know, and so we never thought we would be, you know, the ones getting the knock on the door.

Speaker 2: 2:40

So yeah, I would imagine that you know you would have never imagined yourself being in the spotlight, so to speak, and doing what you're doing. It changed everybody's lives in your family, and in so many different ways, I'm sure.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Yeah, it sure did. It changed all of us, you know, and we initially, when it all happened, we, my mom and I, were the only ones left in Windsor Locks and you know we tried to be private like we didn't want to make do interviews and things. But we were basically told well, you know, if you don't do interviews, then we'll just come up with whatever we want to say. You know, we'll interview someone who may have known him for five minutes or you know, something along those lines. So you know, we were almost pretty much forced into, you know, giving interviews and you know, and exposing our pain right there in front of everybody. So you know, I thought that was kind of kind of crappy.

Speaker 2: 3:35

But yeah, yeah, it absolutely is. And you know, and I rant about this regularly, about the behavior of mainstream media and so-called journalists, and you know, and all of these people, the integrity of all of it is in has declined to, you know, to just just a deplorable degree, and I'm sorry your family experienced that too. I want to ask you you know so, so many of us who know John's story, we, we know him as a hero Like that is our only understanding and knowledge of him. I would love, if you wouldn't mind, could you share a moment that kind of shows who he was, and I love the things I've seen, some things you've said about him. Tell us a little bit about John, the brother, the guy, the son, the friend. What was he like?

Speaker 1: 4:26

guy, the son, the friend what was he like oh?

Speaker 1: 4:27

my gosh, how much time do you have? We grew up in the 70s basically 70s, 80s and back in a time where I think even adults wouldn't insist on the kids accepting everybody for whatever they brought to the table. And John was ahead of his time in that he didn't care if it was cool to be seen with a certain person or you know, um, he, just he. He had a lot of compassion for for most people. Um, he would stand up against bullies, for, you know, kids who couldn't defend themselves. Um had a neighbor, family, friends they're our family and they had a handicapped daughter and even at 12 years old, john would just disappear. We'd all be playing outside and he'd just disappear. And we'd find him inside the house playing with Mary because she couldn't come outside. You know she had a lot of mobility issues and things like that. So you know he would just disappear and go play with her and you know he was that kind of kid and I don't know.

Speaker 1: 5:33

I'm sure I've told the story before. I mean it started way back, you know, from the time he was probably born, because my mom would. My mom said that before he could really talk much at all, if he saw her upset. He would just walk up to her and cup her face and say it's OK, mommy. I mean, he just had that compassion in him. He stood up to a kindergarten bully when they were all in kindergarten. It was the very first day of school and I got this story from little Billy. Billy was new to this town and, um, it was before school started. And billy says I must have said something to piss off maureen walsh, and, and she punched me in the stomach and she wound up to punch me again.

Speaker 1: 6:15

And this, this kid, stepped in the way and it was john. You know, they're all five years old, you know. So at five years old, john stepped in front of you know. I mean, it was like that's just who he was. And he was funny, funny, a smart ass, what a smart ass. But just a great, great guy. I mean, I don't want to. You know, both of all of my siblings were just great people that we're talking about John here. So, yeah, he was just. He didn't. I don't think he had like a lot of inner circle friends, but when he pulled you in, it meant, you know, he really saw something in you or he wanted you near him, um, and so he did have some really good friends there um growing up.

Speaker 2: 6:58

Yeah, that's beautiful I, you know I I love that. Did. Um, I would imagine that so many people after his passing came and shared stories. That's probably. You know, if there's ever anything good to come from such a tragedy is that. You know, because we don't just randomly share great memories of people with each other, right, and when something like this happens, it triggers all of those memories and people are so kind to share those memories so that you get to have them as well. Did that? Is that something that happened a lot? Did you get a?

Speaker 2: 7:31

lot of stories that you never knew.

Speaker 1: 7:33

Absolutely. It happened a lot. So I just self-published a book after Alone at Dawn. I have Alone at Dawn first, so that my co -author I just self-published first there the Life and Legacy of American Hero, master Sergeant John Chapman. It's a mouthful, but it kind of had to be. But in that book I tell about a lot of the stories that came out after he was killed, and stories that even went back all the way to. One of them was when he was around nine years old, that somebody just held on to for all those years and then felt, you know, I as a mom, I need to share this with his mom and you know, so it was a lot of these stories that came out in, you know, after he was killed. That I included in there and um, I'm repeating myself now, but um, so so yeah, there were lots of. Even I think Billy was one of the ones that I mean, he told me that story and I think in 2016,.

Speaker 2: 8:31

You know, it's just those pictures on the, on the cover, are such a treasure and I would imagine there's there's so many, like every family of that era. Now they all, they it's all on their phone. They got to scroll their phone to find it, but we're so blessed to have those actual albums and physical pictures you can hold in your hand and look at and they're such treasures now, I'm sure, more than ever. Since we're talking about the books, tell me a little bit more about that one. I'm so curious about that actual writing process of it because I'm sure it had to be such a mixed bag of emotions, the sadness, the you know. So tell me a little bit about the best parts about writing this book for you and if you're willing to share one of the most difficult parts of it.

Speaker 1: 9:19

The first there. So that was the book I originally wanted to write. You know, right out of the gate, as soon as John was gone, I, I, you know he can't just be a footnote in history Um, especially that's how they were telling it initially Um, and so I wanted to write a book and it took me 15 years to even I would start and stop cause I had no idea what I was doing, and um, and then I got connected with my coauthor from Alone at Dawn, uh, dan, and you know, with a partner. It changed my view, my, my um vision changed entirely, which is the way it should have. It needed to happen that way. But so eventually, after after Alone at Dawn came out in 2019, um, I started kind of working on that again with my husband's, you know, kind of encouragement, like, hey, when are you going to sit down and when are you going to keep doing this? So, and it was, I had already talked to a lot of his like brothers in arms there to get stories about him, cause, you know, I don't know combat control, I didn't know what happened in his training or anything after training.

Speaker 1: 10:23

So a lot of them were very gracious enough to sit down with me and give me some stories and or email me something, and so that it was really fun to to see John from that perspective, cause I obviously I knew him growing up, I knew him personally, but I didn't know him in the job basically, and so it was. It was a lot of fun to hear those stories and just to hear how much they respected him, how much he had a lot of bona fides. He'd walk in the room and you know I'm not saying every room, but you know, and a lot of people would say, oh, you know, he's with Chappie, so he's good, you know.

Speaker 2: 10:58

Chappie that was his nickname.

Speaker 1: 11:00

Yeah, yeah, and that was even his nickname growing up from with his, with his friends and um, but, yeah, that's what he I I think after he died, some of the guys were even like, oh yeah, his name is john, like they didn't really know, they just called him chappy, you know. So, yeah, so it was really. I think the best part was just hearing stories from other people, um, that I hadn't heard before, or, um, even some some things from my family members that I hadn't either hadn't heard before, or even some some things from my family members that I hadn't either hadn't heard before, or they clarified it. You know, it brought it more to life for me and hopefully in the book for everyone who reads it.

Speaker 2: 11:36

But yeah, it's a beautiful thing to have done for you know, for your own sake, really, you know that's probably first and foremost for you, your family, john's friends, you know the people that knew him and then to extend that to us, for us to get to know him, to know these things about him. So what a wonderful thing to have done to keep his legacy and, you know, his memory alive. I think that's so great and as an author, I totally fiction and nonfiction, so I totally get everything that you're saying about that process and everything that goes into it and all of those things. Have those books given you any kind of bug? I'm just out of curiosity. This is a random offside, sideways question here. Does it give?

Speaker 1: 12:26

a bug for more writing. Oh yeah, I've always liked writing. I've never, you know, I think from here on out I'll never write nonfiction again, but I have some ideas swirling around in my head about, you know, for fiction.

Speaker 2: 12:40

That's exciting.

Speaker 1: 12:40

I love that yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:43

We mentioned the other book with Dan Schilling. Let's talk about this one a little bit. This one actually came out first, you said correct? Yes, yeah, Tell me a little bit about the process of that, what we can find inside there too.

Speaker 1: 12:57

So the process was I mean, I had never written a book before, so everything was new to me. Um, the process was, um, it was interesting. It was challenging at times. Um, you know, um, dan is a very strong personality. I mean, he was a combat controller too. I mean, they're all type a, you know, um, and Dan could pretty much sell, you know, ice to Eskimo. So you know it was, it was definitely interesting and I learned a lot of very valuable lessons.

Speaker 1: 13:23

And you know, we went through our issues, but I think, you know, we were able to work through them and and produce a really good book. It was a New York times bestseller, yes, um, and so it's basically no one's ever heard of air force combat control, or at least maybe back then they didn't. And, um, even people in the air force hadn't heard of it, or at least didn't know much about it. And so we, we kind of uh, give the background on how it, how it kind of started. Um, the pipeline is the longest and hardest of any of the. Whether you're looking at delta seals, whatever pipeline is the longest and hardest of any of the. Whether you're looking at Delta SEALs, whatever, it's the longest of all of them because combat controllers and there may be only one per group have to integrate with various. They have to integrate with the SEALs and the Delta and, you know, sas and all these, even foreign entities. So they have to know, they have to be prepared to be able to integrate with each one. It could be day to day, week to week or hour to hour. You know, you don't know. You have to be able to just um, pivot and and, uh, fit right in. So there's this longest and hardest, uh, so we talk about that.

Speaker 1: 14:34

Obviously dan is the one who did all all that, because I wouldn't have a clue what John went through in the pipeline and John didn't. It wasn't easy for him. You know, that was the first thing, the first time when I was, when I was learning about even combat control myself, like I didn't know about combat control until after he died. So in writing that book I learned a lot more than I had had before that and I mean I grew to.

Speaker 1: 14:58

I was so impressed with John, even more so after learning what they have to go through and what they have to know and what they have to do and and have to know like high level math. I'm like high level math. You know he did. You know, in high school he probably had average grades. You know, I never, you know. So I was like, wow, little brother, I'm pretty impressed with this um. So it was nice to, to, to find out that stuff. But we, so we explained that and then we kind of go in, we, and there are some little stories about john's interspersed throughout um, just to kind of connect where john was when this combat control was was growing um, and then we, you know, talk about the battle and, um, I have a chapter in there at the end. That's. That's strictly on the Medal of Honor ceremony in 2018.

Speaker 2: 15:44

So yeah, yeah, the the book is is a really fascinating blend of like the the tactical and the personal like it's. It's such a great balancing act between the two and and you get both of those perspectives really you know. So what, what, what you're getting on the personal side and then marrying that with all of that technical, tactical stuff, it's like it's almost overwhelming right for like just learning all of that going. Wow, there's just so much encapsulated in all of this. And and of course, you mentioned the battle, so I think it's a great time to go into that. So if you could, you know and feel free to kind of like just summarize it for everyone, just the the timeline in the events of what happened, so we can kind of go into what happens next so the timeline was, um, that there was this big, uh, the sheikah valley.

Speaker 1: 16:43

They were the, all the military, they were all going to be. There was just going to be this big, um, massive, let's, you know, sweep through here and and get stuff done. Well, the combat controllers had to find higher ground, so from from there they could call in airstrikes and they could see the valley and, uh, and know where to to do that. So there had to be, you know, uh, they had to find places to land and things like that. So john's group, um, he was embedded with a seal team, six team, and, um, they didn't have to go into the mission, they already had people in place. Um, and the I don't want to get to go into the mission, they already had people in place. And the I don't want to get too deep into the weeds.

Speaker 1: 17:20

Just, it was a poorly planned, unnecessary mission that the SEALs pushed because they thought that bin Laden was there and that they were going to get the kill. I mean the ultimate get down to the brass tacks. They wanted their you know, we're so wonderful, you, you know, be able to raise their flag over his body and um, so, but they didn't need to go there. It wasn't a mission that had to happen. That night, um, two other seal team leaders were given the mission and they said, no, we're not doing that. And then john's team leader and I usually say leader, but, um, that's just me, because I've gone through this for so many years I've gotten very cynical but, um, yeah, so he accepted it and he did try to push it 24 hours, um, and the leadership said, no, I, you know, we want, we need to get in it now, we need to get in the fight. And so they went and they had helicopter issues and things like that, and so. So initially they're supposed to land at the base of the mountain and work their way up and be a surprise that they went up there. Um, so, because of, um, helicopter issues and whatnot, they delayed. It was delayed for hours, and so the best thing they came up with was to land on the top of the mountain in a chinook, like. I mean, everybody knew they were coming. There's no way to hide that, you know. Know the sound of it, the massive, you know it's huge. And so the and they knew the enemy was there. They were told prior to that that the enemy was up there and they just decided to cowboy it and it's like, well, you know we're SEALs and you know they'll run because they know it's us. But and they didn't, you know.

Speaker 1: 18:51

So they were attacked when, as soon as they were trying to land, the back was already open and one of the seals, somebody else, had fallen out and he was tethered. That guy was tethered, so Neil Roberts tried to pull him back in and in you know the push pull of trying to bring someone back in and he wasn't tethered. You know the guy. He ended up being pulled out and they were taking RPGs. So the pilot, and and they were taking RPGs, so the pilot, not knowing what was going on in the back, you know, said we got to get out of here and left. So they left Neil there, who? And he was ultimately executed within I don't forget how many, I don't know, it could be 20, 40 minutes, I don't know. I know he did, you know, try to kill them, but he was surrounded. But so, anyway, once they crash landed, they said, well, we have to go back and get Neil, and John wanted to. They wanted to leave John with the, with the crew of that fallen helicopter, the downed helicopter and John was like no, I'm on the team, I'm coming with you. But then there were still more delays because they brought in another helicopter and pilot said oh no, I'm not going back up there right now, we need to go back and whatever. So there were still more delays and um, so then when they went back the second time and they did the same thing gonna land right there where they tried to land before and expecting different you know whatever results and uh, they got they landed. Um, normally the controller is the last one out, from what I understand, um, at this point, because it was all ad hoc and they just wanted to go find neil.

Speaker 1: 20:24

Uh, the team leader went out first post hold into their knee to thigh deep snow and um, so he post hold and fell on his face and john stepped over him and they were taking fire from you know, two bunkers. So he, uh, attack, is the, you're supposed to attack your attacker. So he went right after the first bunker and killed those two guys, took over the bunker. Um, you know, basically there was all that. Then, uh, at some point in time they he and the team leader went to and the other guys had come out and kind of spread out. Then john, um, went to the second bunker. At some point in time he was hit and um, that's when the team leader split off and met up with the other guys and they were like where's chappy? Oh, he's dead. But he never checked him, um, so I can't, you know the. The guys on the mountain were like okay, well, well, you know, now we have to go with what we were just told. So he told them Chappie's dead. And so then they egressed, but not far, because they could still hear the once I'm blowing through all this, skipping a lot, skipping a lot.

Speaker 1: 21:29

But John came to after maybe 15, 20, 30 minutes, I don't know how long, and started fighting with the, with the elk. They tried to, you know, attack him with whatever they had. So the team leader had admitted that he heard what was going up on the mountain, going on up on the mountain, and these guys are elite, they know the different reports from you, know different weapons, and so there's no way he didn't know that that was an american weapon. Um, they tried to push it off as it was red on red. Where they were, the enemy were fighting each other or shooting at each other, but this time it was daylight. Well, it was. It was it was dawn, which is like alone at dawn, you know. But the sun was coming up and these guys had been on the mountain for weeks, months, maybe even years, so they knew each other. They weren't going to be fighting each other. And then he said, well, it must have been them celebrating and I'm like that's fine, they might celebrate for like five minutes, they're not going to celebrate for over an hour. You know himself and the team.

Speaker 1: 22:36

He called in airstrikes. Having heard the firefight going on there, he called in airstrikes. So not only is John handling being fired at RPGs, hand-to-hand combat. He had to kill a couple guys with hand-to-hand combat. Now he's being bombed by his own munitions and you know even just the concussive impacts that he had been taking. I can't even imagine. Yeah, so you know, ultimately they called in for QRF, the quick reaction force.

Speaker 1: 23:09

John had gotten into the bunker. He had been, you know, shot, you know he had all kinds of wounds, shrapnel, whatever, and he was in there. And I know he heard the helicopter. He knew the helicopter, the qrf, the third one was coming up there and, um, I, I. He actually had to have seen it also, and he could have stayed in the bunker, um, and just prayed that he didn't bleed out and that he would be saved. But instead he knew that the enemy wanted that bunker from which to shoot RPGs and the Dishka machine gun and he left cover so that he could lay down suppressive fire for the incoming QRF. Unfortunately, some of the guys were shot as soon as they left the the rail, um, but john's actions, you know, actually probably saved all of them on that urf. And then after that um, yeah, he was. He was killed right after he. He laid prone to try to keep. I think he was shooting at the fish disc machine gun and then somebody you know got a shot that that that ended up killing him.

Speaker 2: 24:22

Wow, the, the horror and also pride that in him, of course, that you and your family had to have been feeling at hearing all of this, because is that is a lot, that is a lot to envision, that's a lot to hear, that's a lot to process. Um, I can't even fathom how that must have felt for your family. How long from the time that john was killed was it before you actually got the full story? And did you and your family already suspect there were things like what was that timeline where things kind of started evolving into something different, where you had to question so, immediately after it all happened, we were basically told they landed on the mountain, he killed two people and he was shot and killed.

Speaker 1: 25:16

So basically, you know, like bing bang, boom, he's done and he's now a footnote Um, and we all I mean I haven't talked to all, I haven't talked to my sister and my brother about, um, what their feeling was, um, but I know my mom and I were like there's something more to this, there has to be something. Yes, especially my mom, because she wanted to know from his commander did he suffer, did he die immediately? And she was told he died immediately, which is true, he died immediately with that last shot, but he didn't, you know, he lived for an hour and a half an hour and 20 minutes after they left him. Now, I'm not saying that the commander knew that at the time, right after it happened, I don't know um, but and then it took, it was just like in trickles, like you know, I we talked, because my husband was the first sergeant of that unit. So, okay, yeah, that's how I met him was through john's death, but, um, you know, so there was, we still had that connection in in there. You know, if I had just been a sister with no connection to the unit at all. We probably there might have. I don't know if we would have known half of this stuff. I don't know, um, but people started saying, hey, this is there's no way, this is wrong.

Speaker 1: 26:29

You know people within the community saying, you know, chappie didn't die right away and because, um, there was another combat controller on another mountain after the SEALs left and John came up on the radio and he had a specific combat controller, specific whatever you call it, call sign, and they were Mako 30. He was Mako 30, charlie. He was the Charlie because of the combat controller. And so John came up on the radio. I want to say, uh, maybe 10 to a dozen times. You know any station, any station, this is Mako three, zero Charlie, and a combat controller on another mountain heard him and he, you know he had worked with John, he knew that, he knew John's voice, he knew how he spoke and um, and he would respond and, and knew how he spoke and um, and he would respond and, and, just, for whatever reason, john either couldn't or or didn't respond back whenever whenever Jay, uh, you know, answered him. So, and that was after the guys left, um, so there's that proof.

Speaker 1: 27:29

You know, there were just little things that started coming out, like he, his body was found not where the team leader said that he left them, you know. And he what? And so neil's body. They had a few hours with him and so he, he was stripped of most of his clothing and he was. You know, they did things to him. John didn't have any mutilation, he didn't, he wasn't stripped, they didn't have time. So, I'm OK, they, they had this time between when the SEALs left and the and the Rangers finally came in after the QRF. They, they would have done the same thing to John and he was not touched. So, you know, in my mind I'm like they didn't have time to do it, you know.

Speaker 1: 28:09

So, you know, there was just a lot of things that didn't make sense. And then the lies well, I checked him. Well, how did you check him? Well, I rolled over him. And then, you know, then it was well, I, I checked him, I checked his pulse, or oh, there was a laser, a stupid story about a laser from his weapon laying on. You know, first it was moving and then it wasn't moving, I mean, so the story kept him basically yeah and and yeah, and they were pretty stupid, so you know's like we're not dumb.

Speaker 1: 28:37

So it started coming out a little bit at a time and I got married to Kenny and he got to see both sides of losing a troop and then seeing the pain of the family. Like you know, he lived both sides and we were talking and we tried everything we could back in I want to say 05, 06 to get him get his Air Force cross upgraded or at least looked at for an upgrade, and we just kept getting shot down like immediately, like immediately, and we're like, ok, there's something going on here, that it's, that it's this fast. And so John had a ship named after him in I want to say it was 06, and general jumper was there and jumper knew that kenny was married to john's sister, and so kenny went up to him and said hey, you know, um, what do you think about having this, having looking, looking into having his upgraded to the medal of Honor? And Jumper said to Kenny again, knowing that he's married to John's sister, the Chapman family has been very easy to work with, so let's not make waves, wow.

Speaker 1: 29:45

That to me was like you know, full confirmation that there's more. You know. And then that's go ahead. I'm sorry, no, no go ahead.

Speaker 2: 29:54

I'm sorry, no, no, go ahead. So that's almost in a nutshell that this all it's all because they didn't want this incident looked at. That's the whole reason, right, why the Medal of Honor upgrade was not happening, why they were just stonewalling you, because they did not want eyes on any scrutiny on what really happened, right right, and they is not the air force, they in the, in the seals, they did not, you know, because for them it's all about the brand that you know.

Speaker 1: 30:25

You know we are, we are navy seals and we, which is completely not true um, they're human beings and they always make mistakes. And so you, you know, as from a family perspective and I think I feel like I speak for pretty much every family who's lost someone in war or not Just, all we want is the truth. Tell us the truth. If our person male, female, whatever if they screwed up, then we want to know If he or she was a hero. We want to know that too. We don't want it know if, if he or she was a hero, we want to know that too. We don't want it to be suppressed, we don't.

Speaker 1: 30:59

Neil roberts was a hero. They didn't even celebrate their own guy, you know, because in doing so it would have. It's just. It blows my mind that this, the many, the people, that they don't care who they hurt, as long as it keeps their brand, you know, shiny, I don't know. And american people are so gullible, you know, everybody's like oh well, they're needy SEALs, so they would. Or military doesn't even have to be SEALs. So they're above board and they would never lie. I mean, look at Pat Tillman's family. They were lied to, you know, and it's just tell us the truth.

Speaker 2: 31:31

Yeah, yeah, you uh, in undertaking all of this and, you know, just being exposed to it and then advocating the way that you have, that obviously must have drawn so many more military families who went through or are going through similar things as this. Did you find that there were a lot of people coming to you and saying and sharing their own stories and sharing their own questions and asking maybe even for your help in, you know, writing these grievous wrongs?

Speaker 1: 32:04

I didn't really get. I mean, I start, I didn't start. I entered or joined a Facebook page that was a Gold Star Siblings for a while and there were some sisters who reached out to me, you know, with different grievances, some of it with whatever branch it was that their you know their sibling had was in. Some of it had to do with more personal things, like the what do you call it? Pnok, the primary nexapin, which is at the. You know, the ones that came to me were the ones who had spouses, who had in-laws, sister-in-laws, and how they were treated in that respect. So you know, that was a big thing for on that, on that site. But I didn't really have a lot of people I mean, cause I was still fighting my fight have a lot of people because I was still fighting my fight and a lot of them. I think they they just accepted what they were told and I don't know, I feel like there are a lot out there whose story is not quite what you think it is.

Speaker 2: 33:07

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:08

I feel like they lie about it for no apparent reason. You know, like it's just like the knee jerk reaction, like you heard about things in Vietnam. Or you know somebody, somebody went off the off the reservation, but you know they were. The family was told well, he saved a whole platoon. You know, and it's like just tell the truth.

Speaker 2: 33:25

Right.

Speaker 2: 33:25

I don't know, yeah, no, I agree with you and I can certainly see, you know, I can certainly understand families just wanting to take the the best possible version and and leaving it that at that. But you know there's and then there's people like you and your mom that are, you know, just truth. Truth comes before everything and you know, and it's really a testament to your fortitude and my gosh, especially your mom, you know, as a mother, to to hear those things. You know, again, I always put myself in that mindset of how would I feel, how would I react, what would I think, what I do. None of us know, certainly for real, until they're faced with it.

Speaker 2: 34:07

So I commend you so much because there are other families and other military families who have had that gut check as well. That said, something's not right here and I think your story and the way that you have handled this and pursued this, I think it is such an encouragement and almost like a guidebook of how to right, you know, to be like, okay, wait a minute, this is the steps that they went through, these are the things that they said and did and you know, and really just putting the pressure on and putting the spotlight on and obviously that tenacity, that perseverance, it finally paid off with that deserved medal of honor. Take me through, if you will, that, just that, the feeling, the emotions of that, the everything of getting finally that for John.

Speaker 1: 35:01

So, just so everyone knows, our efforts to get his Air Force Cross looked at for the Medal of Honor went nowhere. We had nothing to do with the ultimate him ultimately being awarded the Medal of Honor. What happened was back in, I want to say, 2014-ish. Then Secretary of the Air Force, Deborah James was reading an article in the military time or Air Force Times that asked what does an airman need to do to receive a Medal of Honor Because there hadn't been one since Vietnam.

Speaker 1: 35:28

An airman, not like a pilot or anything. And so she said, hmm, let's find out. And so she tasked her people with finding I don't know 10 or 12 names of people who would have been awarded something, but maybe it should have been the medal of honor and john's name floated to the top, and um, so then ultimately it was, he was chosen as the one to let's, let's prove this, let's make it happen, and um, so then the process went on from there and, uh, the seals, they tried everything they could do to squash john's metal, like everything they could think of, you know. And when it didn't work, they decided to. So so there's a whole big thing. So, rob, rob harrison, was in the um, the ac-130 that was flying overhead and recording. So he was an ear and eyewitness to the whole thing and he was tasked he was on the Medal of Honor task force to prove the medal. So he knew everything that was going on and he was in a room. They were in a meeting that was a. It was just here. We're just gonna show you this. We don't have to do this. We're just going to show you this. We don't have to do this, we're just going to do it anyway, just so you know what we have. And even in the meetings they were like that, that didn't happen that way. Or when he said you know, you know we're talking about John and his, his call sign. And you know they're like, hey, didn't you use that call sign? Yeah, I think I used that call sign too. Like no, they didn't, but they were already doing that. And then, at some point in time, this Jeremy Williams was a. I don't know if he was a commander, I don't know what he was. As far as I'm concerned, he was just a turd. But he leaned back and looked at the team leader and said well, we should just put you in for the Medal of Honor, which is what they ultimately did. And so, yeah, if you read his citation, the actions that he's credited with on his citation were actually John's.

Speaker 1: 37:28

So if you look at the video, that was another thing. What happened, how John was actually awarded, it was because, so, there was a CIA drone flying overhead, overhead, when the battle happened, and then there was the ac-130 flying overhead. Well, when, um, and we didn't, we knew there was a video, but no one ever. We couldn't see it for years, um, and then the medal of honor group was able to take the video. So there was there were some gaps in the the uh cia drone video because I guess probably because they were circling, so there might were some gaps in the CIA drone video because I guess probably because they were circling, so there might be some gaps. Well, the AC-130 had their video and they were able to fill in the gaps Like this, you know, because they didn't. However, it happened, they were still able to see the entire thing and so that's how they had the video to prove John's first Medal of Honor with video proof and he ended up being the first enlisted Air Force Medal of Honor since Vietnam. But it just took a lot and they all tried to.

Speaker 1: 38:26

So when John was awarded the Air Force Cross, they had three I want to say three after action reports or three eyewitness statements is what it was by three teammates for for the air force cross. They weren't signed because they were downrange or they were somewhere, so they were electronically sent. So they they weren't like, physically signed. The air force asked them to sign their, just ask them to sign their, their statements from the air force cross thing, and they refused to sign them, like no, not signing them. There were just so many things that they did to try to.

Speaker 1: 39:01

Oh, he went against orders and he did this and he did that. He saved your lives, people. He did what he was supposed to do. He attacked the attackers, you know. Yes, he was a combat controller. Yes, he was supposed to call in airstrikes or set up comms, but that wasn't the mission. At that point in in time, the mission was finding neil and and and even if john had to set up comms, he had to reach higher ground. He had to. He had to do something other than staying there fighting with the, with the helicopter. He had to move to higher ground anyway. So everything that they've said is just fiction, bullshit, really. And and and, and, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:35

Yeah, you have been so fearlessly bold in calling out by name these people who really did a disservice, more than a disservice. That's such an understatement to your brother and to your family and to his memory and against their own honor. Really, I'm curious have any of them ever responded or reacted to you, publicly or privately, positively or negatively, in response to any of this?

Speaker 1: 40:05

Well, I don't know, I guess we haven't talked about the museum thing. But, and so I have this Navy SEAL. So I say turd, because in their community that's a really bad thing to be called. But I really truly believe that these people are certain ones. So there's a Navy SEAL in California who's trying to make a documentary of the fiction and he's been trying to get in touch with me. Um, for his own nefarious reasons, you know, get me on video, get or get me on tape saying something. And then he can say you know, well, John's sister actually talked to me, or, you know, or he could take what I say and twist it and edit it or whatever it is. Um, so he's tried. Um, and I did talk to him a couple years ago when he first, when I had no clue, you know, and he and I I just told him back then I don't trust you, you know, you're Navy SEAL, you know he even admitted, you know, I might have a, I might have a slant towards the Navy SEALs, what you think you know. So he was, he was just a lapdog for, for the, for the guys, for the higher up dudes that are pulling the strings, and I'm not afraid to say their names, because they have to be spoken, because we're not the only family that has been affected by these people.

Speaker 1: 41:25

I mean, 12, 10 years after John, Commander Joe Price was murdered, murdered. He was a commander of SEAL Team 4. He was murdered by his own men at the order of someone who was also involved in John's, Tim Szymanski. He was the one who forced the mission for John and he was the commander or above Commander Price. Yeah, so this has to be, it has to be stopped. People have to know their names, they have to hear the stories of all these families who are, who are destroyed because of these, of these, this faction of evil, corrupt navy seals.

Speaker 1: 42:04

Um, you know, logan melgar was murdered by navy seals and I mean everybody knows that he was murdered and yet nothing happened to these guys. You know, initially the army was investigating that and they said well, it's because he found out that they were stealing money from the you know they're sent over with a whole bunch of money that they were stealing money. And then the Navy took over the investigation and all of a sudden it was a hazing accident gone wrong and so nobody got. You know, and it's like it's just disgusting and it has to stop, and, and I feel like the only way for it to stop is to start saying their names. You know the guy John's team leader, Brent Kelly Slabinski, is. I mean, he has a big hand in what happened with the, the Medal of Honor Museum and I mean, I don't know how.

Speaker 1: 42:51

I just don't know how they sleep at night. I mean, they have no souls. I pray, I pray and it's hard for me to pray for them, but I pray that that God enters their hearts and their souls because, or helps them regain their souls, because if he's in their hearts they can't be doing what they're doing. You know, one of them a different guy, navy SEAL, you know said oh my God, he said he invoked God and I'm like, if you truly had God in your heart, you could not do what you're doing. Yeah, so, and it's again, it's very hard for me to pray for them, but I do. I pray that they, that God helps them wrench their souls back from the devil. And I know there's some people out there who probably be like oh, she sounds like a crazy nut, but I truly believe that you know, if they had God in their hearts, they couldn't do what they're doing.

Speaker 2: 43:45

Yeah, I think. Personally, as a Christian, I think that is probably one of the hardest things to do. One of the hardest things to do, which is, instead of cursing the people who have done you wrong or done grievous wrongs, instead of cursing them, to pray for them. I find that to be one of my greatest challenges and I commend you so much for digging so deep to find that ability to offer that kind of grace when the us in us would rather punch him in the face. Let's call it what it is.

Speaker 1: 44:24

We'd rather throw a punch and then preach to him. That's exactly what I said. I'd rather throw a punch at him, and don't get me wrong. And I had to talk to my pastor about this because I was so conflicted Like I don't know how to forgive. I'm not there.

Speaker 1: 44:41

I don't know if I'll ever forgive, but I can still pray for them. And I was conflicted with trying to find that but also really feeling the need to continue to tell the story because more families are being destroyed because of them, and so I feel like there's not just this for me to pray for them or try to find some kind of forgiveness, but it's also I don't know why I've asked God to make sure. Am I on the right path? Am I supposed to be doing this? And I've never had to know. So you know, my pastor was like you can have the two. Things can coexist. You can want to speak the truth and try to forgive them. You know you can do the both Absolutely, and so I'm really conflicted about all of that. Yeah, and I think that's.

Speaker 2: 45:29

I think that is more than okay, that's, that's so human and understandable. And I think the biggest takeaway from everything that you just said was your desire to kind of reconcile those feelings and to still power through all of that which makes us so human and ourselves, and bring that faith into it and ask God to work through you to help you through that. And I think that's so incredible and it's funny. One of the last questions I was going to ask you, I was going to say I'm going to read it anyway. I was going to say, if John's story helps reshape how we honor fallen heroes or hold certain leaders accountable, what kind of change would you most want to see in the next few years? And I feel like you partly answered that already. It's, you know it's the transparency and bringing to light the things that are in the dark. And then you know your grace part speak a little bit more and better than I did on that, please.

Speaker 1: 46:32

Yeah. So, like I said, the truth just needs to be told. Just good, bad, ugly, whatever, just tell the truth. It's just let's just stop, you know. And then they always get caught. You know, pat tillman, they finally got caught. You're lying. You know all these other stories. You got caught. You're lying like let's, can we just stop, um.

Speaker 1: 46:48

But there also has to be and I don't know how this happens, and I know there were people within the seal community and I and I'm not saying that the SEAL community is the only community that has bad actors, I'm not saying that and I also am saying that not all SEALs are bad I have yet to meet. I have two guys, two guys that I would probably trust, you know, one I'm Facebook friends with and one I just know, um. But um, I've been just so jaded by the whole thing that, you know, if I hear someone say, oh, my brother's a Navy SEAL, I mean I'm immediately like, oh, well, then he's a piece of crap, you know, and it might not be fair, but that's my all every dealing that I've had with the Navy SEALs. Um, even even I, I um, what's his name? Ryan zinke. He's a representative from montana. He called me when you, I didn't tell you, you know, he called me trying to smooth things over, things over with the museum thing, and he was such an arrogant dick like he thought he was just gonna swoop in there and have a phone call with me and smooth things over.

Speaker 1: 47:51

And and then when he, when I, I mean I got heated, I got upset, you know, pissed. I'm like, well, you're telling me that this is okay, you. And then when he, when I, I mean I got heated, I got, you know, pissed. I'm like, well, you're telling me that this is okay, you know. And then he would like turn tail and ran. He's like, well, I can see you're upset, I think we should end the call. You know, I'm like, is that what you do with your constituents? They get pissed at you, so you'll turn around and run, like I mean that'm getting into that.

Speaker 1: 48:19

But so I think I started to say before I did the caveat of you know, not the not everyone's a bad seal and not not every other branch is perfect either. But I feel like the onus is a lot on each, each group, each branch, each, even in just down to a small. Why would you have? You know, everybody talks about this brotherhood or we're this great brotherhood. Why would you want anyone in your brotherhood who could tarnish your brand, tarnish your trident tarnish, whatever your symbol is? Why would you do that? Why would you accept that?

Speaker 1: 48:49

And I know that there was somebody within the SEAL community that was trying to clean things up in SEAL Team 6. And he got ousted. You know, know, and it's like right, because there's this group that's that's growing stronger and has a lot of so I don't know, if you read the book um code over country by matthew cole and he delves into the, you know where seal team six started with marchenko in the 70s and talks about this stanley penny in one of the very first chapters and what they did to him. If you read nothing else of that book, read what they did to him. And that's the type of thing that they do for especially the weaker ones to control them. They get them in compromising situations, they take photographs, they do things like this so now they own you. You either leave or you do what they tell you to do. And like this so now they own you. You either leave or you do what they tell you to do. And and I know this for a fact, and there was just an article that a woman uh, was it seth attenant? Put out on the sub stack and where she said that I think it was three things I wish I knew before my son became a navy seal or tried to be a navy seal. And she talks about something very similar to that where it's's like they find a way to control you, and apparently I don't know. That's what's going on there. But so that's what I feel.

Speaker 1: 50:02

Like each service, each group I mean going all the way down to the smallest group you should be policing yourselves. Why would you want somebody bad in your group? And I was trying to think about this one time, like, okay, there are brotherhoods and there's sisterhoods, I really feel like sisterhoods. Like if I was in this big group sisterhood and one or two or three of them decided to do all this, hey, let's go rob banks, whatever I would be like, oh heck, no, you're out. And not only are you out, I'm calling the police on you. You know what I mean. Like maybe that's. Well, that doesn't go. The bro code is you know you're, you don't. You don't rat your people out, but well, you could at least kick them out.

Speaker 1: 50:39

You know, if you don't want to rat them out, kick them out. So I feel like there has to be some kind of the joe price murder. And yet they're not speaking out. Yeah, there are people who know how bad some of these seals are. I mean, there are. I've talked to controllers, I've talked to pjs who who have said, yeah, we don't, we never wanted to be deployed with seals because they got people injured or killed because they they call cowboy it up, it up. You know, like we can just roll in there and and and just shoot from the hip, and you know. So, these people, I know they have their lives. But you know, if you, if all this is going to be fixed and cleaned up and and, and you know, wipe the tarnish off the, off the tridents and everybody else's symbols, then they need to start from within. And and Unfortunately, with the SEAL faction, a lot of them.

Speaker 2: 51:37

You, lori, who you know I would call a reluctant warrior right Like this, is not the role that you would have ever imagined yourself being in or playing, or even having knowledge of so many different aspects of this, but it's.

Speaker 2: 52:10

You know, if I dare say, it's almost like it's the path that God chose for you to do this, because he must have taken one look at you and said they are not going to mess with this one. So I'm sending her, I am sending her in, and she is going to be the one, to you know, to go in there and shine this light on this dark underbelly of something the rest of us only see the shiny surface of. So again, you know, I know I said it to you before, but I have so much respect and admiration for what you do because I can only imagine how difficult it has been, and I'm sure it does not get easier, and I'm sure that the battle that you fight on behalf of your brother and men and women like him who have had similar things happen to them, it must be exhausting in so many ways. So I just I commend you beyond the words that I'm even capable of. So thank you.

Speaker 1: 53:10

Thank you, but you know, as you're talking about, you know, back after, after the Medal of Honor poll thing, you know watching Slabinski get a medal that he didn't earn and and it's like I had moved on. That was 2018, when that was because he, he had to, that was another thing. They wanted to make sure that his was awarded first, but whatever, it's all about optics and whatever. But I had I had kind of moved on, I had, you know, I'm living my life. I found my own piece and then the whole museum thing happened and then, once that came about, I just said I'm never going away, like I'm just, I can't like this is.

Speaker 1: 53:49

It's so egregious and so disgusting that, um, I, I, just, I, I'm, I'm like this one tiny little voice in in the giant, you know universe, and most people aren't paying attention and you know it's sad. You know there are, I think, I think pretty much every navy seal in the in the congress, which I think is five of them. You, they all ran on Republican ticket. Because why? Because Republicans love the military, and you know. But you know, and again, like you said, I know more than I wish I did. I'm not going to say all of it. But yeah, they're not there because they want to serve the country. They're there for other reasons and it's sad I don't know how we got here.

Speaker 2: 54:35

No, I know I've said that in so many different ways. You know as I go on my journey here, and news and reporting and all of the things you unfortunately you know, you see it, you see it and you can, and it's that discernment that you know these things. You hear and read it and see it and it's immediately setting off those those you know huge red flags like wait a minute, I can tell already this is not right, this is not what it seems and you know, while the rest of the world is like that's wonderful, it looks true, it sounds true, they're saying it so sincerely, so it must be true.

Speaker 3: 55:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:16

Yeah, it's like no, what's wrong with you? How do you not? So, yeah, that discernment man it's. It's a curse and a gift, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 55:24

Oh, no lie.

Speaker 2: 55:26

Yeah, laurie, tell everyone where they can find the books and if there is, oh, we did not talk about First Thayer Foundation, so please take a moment and share about that, if you would.

Speaker 1: 55:37

Sure, the First Air Foundation was founded by a man named Eric Lionheart. He was a combat controller I'll just do a quick, you know, reader's Digest version and he was retired or had gotten out and one of his mentors and friends ultimately took his own life. And it was at that moment that Eric said this has to stop. So he, that night like laid there and thought about the mission and everything and then decided that the mission statement would be to help his combat control family, the controllers and their families, and so he founded the first there foundation, and I can't remember which year. I think we're in our fifth year now.

Speaker 1: 56:30

I wasn't part of it. In the beginning I didn't know him, and now he's just, he's like my brother, but so we've now branched out out. So now it's not just combat controllers and their families, it's all, all military law enforcement, you know first responders and their families, mostly to help with mental health. Um, we do, we do offer other things, like for the controllers when they get out, like you know, hey, how to write a resume for you know the uh, the general, general public or civilian jobs and things like that. So, um, so that we're, we're there to help, um, but again, mostly with mental health and uh and different retreats to help with that.

Speaker 2: 57:08

So I love that. Is there a website? Do you have a website you can? We'll put, and we'll put it, guys, we'll. We will be putting this in the show notes. You'll be able to click on everything and go right First there, yeah, the number one, st thereorg.

Speaker 1: 57:22

Perfect First thereorg.

Speaker 2: 57:24

Yeah, and the books are on Amazon, correct? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 57:26

Both books are on Amazon Barnes and Noble, I think first alone at dawn, I believe is you can get it anywhere whatever bookstore your favorite. Um, with mine being self-published, I'm not sure if they've gone anywhere besides amazon and barnes and noble. I have some on myself, obviously because it's self-publishing. So I'm under no I've said this before, I'm under no delusion that somebody would want a signed copy of mine. You know, just read the book. But, um, you know, if anyone wanted a signed copy of mine, you know, just read the book. But you know, if anyone wanted a signed copy, it's probably best to buy it from me, so I can just sign it and mail it instead of you buy it. You mail it to me, I mail it back and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, so that's where they are Outstanding.

Speaker 2: 58:07

Again, lori, thank you so much for sharing your time with me, sharing your story and, of course, john's story, and all the blessings in the world to you and your family, and your husband as well. Thank him for his service, please. And yeah, it was so great having you on and it was an honor and a privilege to be able to share this story with our audience, so I hope you will consider coming back again when you get your first fiction book maybe.

Speaker 1: 58:32

I know right.

Speaker 2: 58:34

Lovely. I would love that personally, so that would be phenomenal. So, thank you very much and, guys, thank you all for watching and we will see you in the next episode. Take care Three.

Speaker 1: 58:48

Four.

Speaker 3: 58:50

Five, six, seven, eight, seven, five, six, seven, eight. One for teamwork who's up, down, up and teamwork. One for our fallen comrades, who's up, down, up and All comrades. And one for our brother John Chapman, who's up, down, for our brother John Chapman, who's not down On offense. John Chapman Recovered.